Author: Lois | Page 5 | Spiritual Abuse Blogs

Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 6

The following is part six of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 & Part 5.

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Since we know belief alone saves us – what about baptism? Baptism is a declaration of spiritual warfare in the unseen realm. Believing in Jesus saves us – baptism is a loyalty oath! It declares whose side you are on in a spiritual war. Believe on Jesus – be baptized. It’s a wonderful first step of a heart changed by the Spirit – how beautiful! Michael Heiser covers this very well in a variety of his teachings from books, podcasts, and You Tube videos. Some would deny this, but let me ask this. If baptism is likened unto circumcision, how did circumcision save anybody? If you feel it did save, than it must have only saved men. Too bad so sad for women.

I’d always assumed my fear of God and hell came from the inability to speak in tongues. However, now I know so many who do speak in tongues are fear-filled too. This is because legalism and doctrinal error have stolen the peace of God. I fully believe had I been given the Gift of Tongues there would still have been fear and questions needing to be addressed as I tried to keep earning my salvation as taught by the church.

Another thing that really makes me doubt a variety of tongues spoken in our churches today is the story of a pastor’s wife I know who said speaking in tongues came so easily to her that she could be thinking about other things like her grocery list while babbling in tongues. What is the use? What mindless prayer…is this really praying in the Spirit? No.

A friend I went to Bible College with (who’s since walked away from God and the UPC church) told me he still speaks in tongues when he gets emotional. Once he was at a non-Christian concert and raised his hands at an emotional part in a song, and busted out in tongues! He said this can also happen at various parties thrown at home, and it amuses his guests. I’m not sharing this story to put him down in the least, but I’m sharing this because tongues is not all it’s cracked up to be, especially when they are used in a way that’s not scriptural. So the big question then becomes how much of the tongue talking going on in our services is really scriptural? I’ve come to think a majority of it is just an emotional response.

Another friend told me she knows a UPC pastor who has never spoken in tongues, and he doesn’t believe tongues are necessary to show the infilling of the Holy Ghost! I pray more UPC’ers come to this conclusion. [Note from Lois: Everyone who applies for license with the UPCI is asked if they believe that speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial
sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and if they have received this experience. The application asks where and when it happened and these questions are asked for each level of licensing.]

Someone recently told me they didn’t know anyone who hadn’t spoken in tongues (until my story came out). I just want to point out that unless someone trusts enough to share they haven’t spoken in tongues, then no one will know they haven’t spoken in tongues. The individual (me in this case) has to be able to trust in another not to shame them. And this person who said this to me has known me my whole life pretty much. Now many have come to me privately stating they feel like I’m telling their story as I’ve shared my own. We are not just one or two scattered here and there, but we could fill churches. We never know the pain someone is experiencing growing up sitting on the same pews right beside us.

My mother recently went to my previous pastor, and let him know I hadn’t really ever spoken in tongues. Do you want to know what he said? I will tell you… “Five minutes with me, and she’ll be speaking in other tongues.” What nonsense is this? Does he bring the Spirit? No. As if he hadn’t already prayed for me a gazillion times in my life! It didn’t work then, why would he think it’d work now? The Spirit determines the gifts each believer is to receive – not a pastor or anybody else.

Salvation has always been by belief in both the Old and New Testaments. Covenants change, but not the way of salvation. This is why the thief on the cross was able to be saved – because he believed in Jesus. There are so many denominational legalistic teachings that jump through hoops to try and justify situations like this, but it all comes down to belief. So simple. Such a blessing. So much peace in Jesus when we can rest in his assurance. And yes, people can be saved on their deathbeds by repenting and believing in Jesus (think thief on the cross).

As a result of where I am now, I feel such a kindred spirit with other believers. They are my brothers and sisters – not people I need to try to convert to a denomination. Understanding my place in Christ has made me want to share what I’ve learned. Everyone who loves Jesus and wants to live for him deserves to understand what God really wants for us and from us – belief and devotion to him only.

God is not a mean Father standing over us just waiting to string us up by our toes to drop us into hellfire for eternity if we mess up, don’t pray enough, wear pants, cut our hair, or something else a denomination has decided is a sin.

Here are some things I’ve relearned about our Heavenly Father…

1. He doesn’t require tongues as an admittance ticket into Heaven. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
2. The Bible doesn’t promote spanking of children as long as you pray before and after the act. “Sparing the rod” is not about spanking. When you learn the rod and staff are for the comforting and training of his sheep (not hitting his sheep) you realize HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
a. I get it…raising children is hard and frustrating sometimes, especially when we’re unsure on how to bring about the desired behavior. I recommend Positive Parenting Solutions to help with a variety of issues. Their tips are tremendous for both parent and child.
3. We are not in an abusive relationship with God. He does not require we serve him OR ELSE he will torture us for eternity in hell. God wants to live with those who love him for eternity in Heaven. Those who do not want him will die a second death in hell and be dead for eternity (not alive and being tortured for all the rest of time). HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.

4. Tithes are not a requirement for Christians. God doesn’t require people give give give monetarily until they’ve given to such an extent that they have had to neglect their very own real needs to support the church. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE. See this post.

Would we ever think it’s a beautiful and sweet behavior to see a child crying and begging for a gift? “I’ll try hard to be good, mom & dad, I promise. May I pleeeeeease have my gift?” Tears pouring down face… “Pleeeeeease. I love you so much. I will change, I will do what you asked me to do. PLEEEEEASE!” Hands in the air pleading for this gift, and sobs wracking body. “This time may I have it?” Now put this on repeat a hundred times over. Yet, here we are expecting not only ourselves, but also our children, to approach our loving God like this for salvation. God must be so heartbroken! I would feel ashamed of myself if this was how I required my child to act like towards me.

Matthew 18:1-8 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who BELIEVE in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”

<3 CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. <3

I fully recognize and understand how scary and unsettling it can be to realize something we have been taught as truth may not actually be truth. There are a lot of emotions that go along with this revelation. However, how often do we hear that when God is trying to do a work in us it can be painful at times like the pressure it takes to make diamonds? We are a work in progress. He is the potter, and we are the clay.

*Jesus is the narrow gate into Heaven – not a denomination and their rules.

*What does ‘backslidden’ really mean? Teaser alert – it is not leaving your denomination! See this article.

*I highly HIGHLY recommend listening to Deanna Jo’s YouTube channel Responsible Faith. She’s an ex UPC’er who reteaches a lot of scripture that was used to bind the saints into imaging a denomination, and shows what scripture is really trying to say. Image Jesus – not a denomination.

*I recommend the book Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices by Frank Viola and George Barna. This book delves into the history of our church practices, and what God really wants for his people. God wants a much more individualistic functioning of each of his children. Each and every member has an important role, and each one is just as important as the next. Our current church style makes the preacher have a really big mouth, and saints on the pews really big ears. This is not what God intended for the preacher or church body.

*This is a two-part teaching on the Grace of God. You’ll laugh, maybe cry, but in the end understand more about our wonderful Jesus.

*Mike Winger, The Beat by Allen Parr, Keeping it in Context by Aurelio Lessey have a lot of excellent teachings on a variety of topics on You Tube.

*A former Pentecostal pastor’s words on how the United Pentecostal Church misrepresents the Gospel may be found here.

If anyone would like to contact me with sincere questions, please feel free to email me at alicia.dwivedi@gmail.com. If anyone would like to contact me to berate or threaten me with hell – it won’t work. Fear and hell no longer have a hold on me.

I hope and pray my testimony of fear to faith will help people come to a better understanding of the Gospel and salvation. God Bless!

Alicia Sounier Dwivedi – April 27, 2023

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 5

The following is part five of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 & Part 4.

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I read through the whole book of Acts, and if I didn’t miss anything then there are only three cases where speaking in tongues (once again known languages) were present.

Acts is an amazing book which introduces us to the power of the Spirit of God. Jesus came into the world quietly, but the Spirit would come with an unimaginable entrance!

1. Acts 2 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Jews.
a. The disciples and some others were all in one place, and when the Spirit came, they spoke in other languages that were understood by those around them. What was being shared through tongues? “The wonders of God!” vs 11. Take notice that the Bible never says when the Spirit came that salvation came.
b. Vs 18 – God will pour out his Spirit, and people will prophecy. What? Wait a minute – when God pours out his Spirit aren’t people supposed to talk in tongues to show proof they’ve received it? Let’s continue…
c. Vs 21 – Everyone who CALLS on the name of the Lord will be saved. Hmm…doesn’t say everyone who speaks in tongues will be saved.
d. Vs 37 – The people who heard Paul’s message were cut to the heart, and asked what they should do.
e. Vs 38 – Repent & be baptized every one of you, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you, your children, and to all who are afar off.
f. Vs 41 – THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE VERSES! “Those who ACCEPTED his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day. The Bible NEVER says the 3,000 spoke in tongues. Those in the upper room spoke in tongues declaring the wonders of God. The 3,000 accepted the message they heard!!! AGH!!! How many times has it been preached the 3,000 spoke in tongues?! Praise God, I am so happy!

2. Acts 10 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Gentiles. This is you and me, folks. YAY!
a. Vs 43 – All the prophets testify about him that everyone who BELIEVES in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
b. Vs 46 – The Spirit is poured out on Cornelius and his household. They heard them speaking in tongues (known languages – not babble), and they were praising God.
c. Vs 11:15 – Another interesting thing to note about this situation is Paul states the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles just as it had them at the “BEGINNING.” Beginning of what? Beginning of Acts 2. If the Holy Ghost fell on every first-time believer the same way, with evidence of speaking in tongues, then why did Peter reference the beginning? Why did he not reference tongues as it happened yesterday, the day before, last week, or to every believer every time? Because it didn’t happen this way every time…

3. Acts 19 Paul found disciples, prayed with them, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit with tongues and prophesied. The Gifts of the Spirit are clearly working here. Originally this group of disciples hadn’t even heard of any Spirit coming as they were still believing unto John’s teaching and baptism, which was to believe in the one coming after John, that is, in Jesus. This instance was more about proving the working of the Spirit, and not salvation.
a. “It was critical for Paul to understand these new disciples faith in Christ was genuine. Tongues here served as evidence of that. Had Paul not recognized that the Ephesian disciples were speaking in real, human languages unknown to them, there would be no way for Paul to know that their conversion was genuine. In other words, had they only been speaking unintelligibly, Paul would have been unable to confirm that their conversion was real. One must conclude that the Ephesian disciples also spoke in foreign, but intelligible human languages as well, in which case interpretation would also be unnecessary.” Quote from Jason Young.

Should it be said if one doesn’t experience the infilling of the Holy Ghost EXACTLY like they did in these three instances then we really haven’t been filled or filled ‘properly’? Because if this is the case then I think most of us haven’t experienced the infilling EXACTLY as described in these cases, and maybe each of us should start questioning our salvation UNTIL EACH OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN. Sounds pitiful and fruitless, doesn’t it? Here’s what we’d be missing – a sound as of a rushing mighty wind, cloven tongues like as of fire that sat on each of them, prophecy and a shaken place (Acts 4:31). How many have experienced all of these things exactly like this?

*Here are the rest of the locations in Acts where people were saved with no mention of tongues; Acts 4:4, 4:31, 5:14, 8:17, 8:39, 9:18, 11:15, 16:14, 16:25-34, 17:2-4, 17:33, 18:8.

*All BELIEVERS (not tongue-talkers) are baptized with one Spirit – I Cor 12:13, but not all speak in tongues – I Cor 12:30.

*What about Isaiah 28:11 – For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. It’s actually a judgement and not a good thing happening in this passage of scripture. The people were stubborn and wouldn’t listen to God. Learn more in this video.

SALVATION IS BELIEF IN THE GOSPEL – life, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

I have come to believe salvation is so profoundly simple, and it’s a relief to my soul that there is not one thing I can contribute or need to contribute to earn my salvation. Jesus did it all for me and for you!

Think about it…God has a free gift (salvation) for every person who asks for it. However, if you cannot speak in tongues as taught by the Pentecostal Church than you cannot receive salvation. If you are some of the ‘lucky’ ones who do speak in tongues, then you have to keep performing this act to retain your salvation. There are countless people who walk into Pentecostal church services that cannot speak in tongues, who are taught the problem lies with them, but I’ve come to say it’s not the people who are the problem – it’s the United Pentecostal Church’s teaching on what tongues is actually for that is the problem.

Once again these scriptures are not all encompassing, but I am pointing out just a few.

*John 1:12 Yet, to all who did received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God.

*John 3:15 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

*John 5:24 Whoever hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

*John 6:47 I tell you, the one who BELIEVES has eternal life.

*Romans 10:8-11 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,’ that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord,” and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you BELIEVE and are justified, and it with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who BELIEVES in him will never be put to shame.”

*Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of his glory.

*Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not of works, so that no one can boast.

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE – IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DO IN AND OF OURSELVES. We don’t have to perform for anybody.

So how do we know if someone has truly repented and believed unto salvation? Easy…Fruit of the Spirit begins to develop. It’s a heart change. Ez 36:26

“The apostle Paul used Abraham as an example of believing loyalty. Rom 4:1-12. Abraham BELIEVED and was accepted by God BEFORE he obeyed any rules. The rules were about showing he believed. They did not replace belief. Belief and loyalty are two distinct things. Related but not interchangeable. The same is true of salvation and discipleship.” (Michael Heiser’s book – What Does God Want?)

“David was a moral mess, but he never showed disloyalty or lack of love for God. He broke a number of God’s moral laws, but he repented and never worshiped another God.” (Michael Heiser’s book What Does God Want?) If we think that God doesn’t approve of someone because of a hemline, sleeve-length, men growing beards, or anything else along these lines, then there is a lot more Bible reading and soul-searching to be done. God forgive us for being so short-sighted. David was said to be a man after God’s own heart, but in our day and age I think very few of us would say this of a man who was a murderer, adulterer and liar.

There are three divine rebellions in the Bible (I know – we’re taught about only 1). Portions of Michael Heiser’s book, What Does God Want, is highly quoted with random thoughts of my own thrown in. I suggest watching his documentary listed below, and then read or listen to another of his books called The Unseen Realm.

“The 3rd rebellion begins at the Tower of Babel when God confuses the languages due to the people building a tower to their own glory. Gen 11:1-9. The Most High gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind…he fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the Sons of God (divine beings). But the Lord’s portion is his allotted heritage. Deut 32:8-9. Even worse God divorced himself from humanity. Up until this point God had been dealing with mankind as a collective whole, but this changed at Babel. Now human beings would be segregated by language and geography.”

“We aren’t told how long it took, but eventually the Sons of God (divine beings) assigned over humanity became so corrupt God had to judge them too. He will one day take away their immortality and take back the nations. Psa 82:6-8. God’s portion was Israel beginning with Abraham. God’s design has always been to preserve people unto himself, and he gave his people laws to show they wanted to be in his family – loyalty to him alone – not some other god. God wants a human family even when he’s unwanted. His love defies logic.”

“Jesus was the promised offspring who would eventually release people in the divorced nations from other gods so they could rejoin God’s family. Gal 3:16-18, 26-29. The Spirit’s arrival wasn’t just for us, but it launched an infiltration campaign against the sons of God to whom God assigned to the nations he divorced (Deut 32:8) – the supernatural beings who defected from serving God and became corrupt, abusing the people under their domination (Psa 82).”

“When the Holy Spirit came he enabled the followers of Jesus to speak in all sorts of languages, and they told his story (the Gospel) to Jews from all over the world. They were PREACHED TO IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. Three thousand people called upon the name of the Lord for forgiveness of sins and were saved. Then they went home to spread the Gospel.” (Not sit on pews for years of their lives unable to miss a church service for fear of being tempted by the Evil One. Alicia’s words – not Michael Heiser’s.) “These 3,000 became personal evangelists to their friends and family who lived in hostile territory held by other gods.”

Speaking in tongues bridged the gap between peoples. The languages were confused at Babel, and now the Spirit would bridge that gap to bring all the peoples of the nations back to God! Tongues isn’t for us to somehow be more powerful, but it’s given to spread the Gospel. If everyone in a service can all speak the same language than why would tongues be needed? If there’s no one to interpret – keep silent in the church. Very simple!

“Paul knew the forsaken nations would one day worship the true God (Psa 117:1). Spiritual warfare was launched when the Spirit came. Not a moment goes by that God stops pursuing the children he loves and wants. His unseen hand is everywhere, in every circumstance, influencing and empowering his children to grow his family. Likewise the powers of darkness have been dethroned, but they haven’t surrendered. They resist, fighting a losing battle. This our ultimate destiny – becoming a permanent, legitimate member of God’s family. It’s what God has wanted from the very beginning.”

“Those who overcome, enduring in their faith in Jesus, will received authority over the nations (Rev 2:26), and will one day judge angels (I Cor 6:3). Who rule the nations now? The fallen sons of God allotted to nations at the Tower of Babel.”

There’s so much more happening than we’ve been taught, and God is bigger than denominational disputes (which God never wanted his family to be split like this).

To me I now see denominations like this; imagine a huge cruise ship coasting along in the ocean with all of its little life-boats securely attached to the sides. In the lifeboats are the individual denominations yelling and waving their oars at each other saying they only have full truth and revelation. All the while God is carrying everybody who has obeyed the Gospel on his huge cruise ship including the individual lifeboats with the feuding denominations. Watching his children fight and get caught up in Pharisaical issues must grieve him terribly. Instead of being a whole body of Christ, there are divisions. Instead of encouraging each other, saints are trying to convert saints. Instead of making the way to Jesus plain, confusion is sewn instead, which causes many to fall by the wayside. I could have been one of these, but God…

I remember hearing a real story of my previous pastor’s mom speaking out in tongues one service. Unbeknownst to her there was a man of Palestinian descent sitting in the pew who understood every word she was saying IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. He confronted her and thought she knew his language and was trying to convict him personally. This amazes me! To my knowledge that man did not believe on Jesus that day, but the beautiful thing is a seed was planted. He could be walking around saved today, and spreading the Gospel because of the message he heard in his own language.

The church service I was in where God spoke to me personally about being with him for eternity was amazing! You know what would have made it not amazing? If there had been no one there to interpret the tongues spoken. The lady who had spoken in tongues would have been speaking mysteries because no one could understand her except God. It would have done no one in the church any good whatsoever – a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 6.

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 4

The following is part four of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3.

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I will now begin the process of sharing to the best of my ability my journey to REALLY understanding my place in the kingdom of God. However, I don’t want anyone to take my word at face value – study it out. Listen to a variety of teachers on confusing subjects. Take your time, and know God will bless those who seek him. Please also understand, despite what you were taught about having to believe everything a denomination teaches you word for word without any variance or personal opinion, that this is not Biblical and NOT what God designed for his people, the church. I’m not suggesting people need to leave their denominations either. Just be aware when you align yourself with some denominations you oftentimes have to agree to their rules and regulations to be considered “right with God”.

One thing I’ve learned over time is instead of being imagers of Christ we have instead become imagers of denominations.
With some denominations your whole value as a Christian will be based on what you “look” like.
It doesn’t matter what gifts you’ve been given by the Holy Spirit, and it doesn’t matter what important role you have in the body of Christ. You will not be put into any position of ministry because you have not imaged the denomination properly. However, you best still sit in the pew and pay your tithes and give offerings – your money will gladly be used.
Once you have either been guilt-tripped into imaging the denomination again, you will then be considered “spiritual enough” to be in ministry, or you will walk away from the denomination knowing your place is no longer there.

Instead of being shaped into the image of Christ through the development of the Fruit of the Spirit, if we let ourselves we’ll be conformed to religions of this world.
Instead of teaching folks to listen to the voice of God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict where needed, the denomination has decided everything for its saints from the top down producing carbon copies of itself.
Seems a lot like idolatry to me…a denomination trying to mold people into its own image.

I was introduced to a Facebook page called SpiritualAbuse.Org when a certain man who’d been a part of my previous church had been charged with multiple cases of molestation was listed there. Originally I thought this page was primarily about molestation by spiritual leaders, but soon realized it was MUCH MORE THAN THIS. This page was FILLED with help for people who had been spiritually abused in any variety of manner. It also included a ton of information on every subject common to the UPC where pros and cons are clearly stated. You can read/listen to various subjects, and then make up your own mind on where you stand. You see, at this point I hadn’t realized spiritual abuse included me somehow.

Now I know the teaching about tongues being necessary for salvation is so hugely erroneous and is a heretical teaching. An alternate salvation was taught to me. Had this false teaching not been pushed on me from the time I was a little child, I don’t know where I would be in Christ right now. The thought of living for the Lord without all of the guilt and shame I carried for all of these years seems nothing short of idyllic. I can barely grasp the concept.

So why do I mention heresy? It’s so much more than just an error in interpretation or an alternate opinion over a trivial matter. “Heresy is sinful because the heretic commits idolatry by making his own beliefs the object of his desire instead of God who is the truth.” The UPC has made an experience determine how they interpret scripture instead of interpreting scripture correctly, and then defining their lives around that interpretation. Don’t believe me? Read I Corinthians 14, and see if church services function like the Bible says they should function. To be fair, I don’t think many churches do.

In no way am I stating in any way, shape or form those who teach tongues for salvation are malicious or somehow have ulterior motives. They’ve been taught this by their peers, and their peers by their peers. The cycle continues. I was once a part of this cycle for 25 years. I wasn’t mean, but I did think I was right. However, I’m thankful that understanding and peace have finally come to me after all of this time, and I pray my testimony reaches many others.

Another thing I’ve come to realize is so many feel like a denomination has saved them with the help of God, instead of recognizing God has saved them through people who have segregated themselves into a denomination. So they become afraid to leave that particular church or denomination. They can’t venture out anywhere else or their salvation will be in jeopardy.

So how did I come to this conclusion that receiving the Holy Spirit didn’t need to be accompanied with speaking in tongues? Well, I can tell you it wasn’t because I wanted to jump to a conclusion to make myself feel better. If it was that easy then I could have just faked speaking in tongues, and deceived myself into thinking what I was doing “was the real thing.”
When I first heard a former Pentecostal preacher/pastor state tongues wasn’t for salvation – I WAS SHOCKED! I thought, “How can he say that?! Could it be true? I need to look more into this.” So began my delving into debates on tongues, and getting my hands on every article I could read about the subject. I thought my head would explode with all of the information I was trying to take in. If tongues were indeed not necessary for salvation, than why had I been taught this? Forty years of anguish were about to be wiped away.

Please know I’m just touching on various scriptures, and not listing a full view of all verses. These are for reference to share an idea, and can be further studied out.

RECEIVING THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES
PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES – IT EQUALS MINDSET

* The Spirit came on/in people in the Old Testament, which enabled them to do a variety of things. When the Holy Spirit was present, his power was enough to accomplish tasks through willing men. The Spirit is literally all over the Old Testament, helping mankind do the will of God, and here are just a few examples…

Bezalel is “filled” with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).

Sampson performs feats of strength when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him (Judges 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29; Luke 2:25).

So here we come to the New Testament covenant…

Why would the Holy Spirit not be powerful enough to accomplish various tasks now unless a person is actually speaking in tongues? Has the Spirit somehow become weak or inhibited in the New Testament? Is the Holy Spirit now dependent on man to be speaking an unknown language to be powerful? I THINK NOT.

How do we know the Holy Spirit is present? Well, just like in the Old Testament – we accomplish whatever it is that God wants us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

*Notice what Paul does in his spirit (lower case ‘s’) is not being done with the Holy Spirit (capital ‘S’) in I Cor 14:13-15. Nowhere in the Bible is Deity referenced with a lower case ‘s’. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man (his spirit) – not God’s Spirit.

*We are told to pray ALWAYS with the Spirit. Eph 6:18 – shall we take this to mean we should only ever pray in tongues or it’s unacceptable? Of course not.

*When Jesus told his disciples how to pray, he did not say they would have an alternate prayer language one day that would make them more powerful prayer warriors. Luke 11:1-13.

*During Paul’s conversion the Bible never says he spoke in tongues. Some would like to ASSUME he did, but this is to promote a doctrinal belief rather than taking the Bible at its word.

*Paul did later say he spoke in tongues more than anybody else. OF COURSE HE DID – HE WAS AN EVANGELIST. He traveled to a variety of countries to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. How else was he supposed to accomplish this? Hire an interpreter? Oh wait…he had one! The Holy Spirit was with him helping with the Gift of Tongues to overcome the language barrier.

*Tongues given on the day of Pentecost were LANGUAGES that could be interpreted – not something you have to learn to do. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible you have “baby” tongues or “adult” tongues? No. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible that some people will not be able to be saved if they cannot speak in tongues? No. Does it ever say in the Bible that it will take some people longer to be saved than others because some have a hard time speaking in tongues? No. Does it ever say some will need to tarry at the altar time and again to be saved because they can’t speak in tongues for the first few hundred times they ask? No.

*Paul states he wishes everyone would speak in tongues, but not everyone did. I’m sure he also wished everyone were sinless, yet no one is. Just because he wished something to be so, doesn’t mean it is so. He rather states that tongues is not the greater gift, but prophecy is. I Cor 14:5.

*Nowhere does Paul ever state there are two types of tongues (first infilling of the Holy Ghost and a Gift of the Spirit). This in itself speaks volumes. Additionally, if we are to believe that there are two types of tongues, then are we supposed to believe there are also two types of all of the Gifts of the Spirit? If not, why not? Why just tongues?

*Paul states IF someone does speak in tongues they should also pray to interpret. I Cor 14:13. I have never heard a preacher get up and tell people prophecy is the greater gift, and if someone speaks in tongues then they should also pray to interpret. It seems to me that tongues is sought after more than any other gift in our day, just like it was in Paul’s day, and he was literally critiquing them for it. However, in our day not only is the Gift of Tongues more coveted, but a whole denomination has been made out of the practice. I think if the Apostle Paul walked into these churches today, he wouldn’t be giving a happy clap on the back and saying “well done.”

*Paul goes on to say if there’s no one to interpret tongues in the church then to keep quiet. He’s not forbidding tongues, but he’s telling them when and how it should be used. Does this sound like anything that happens in our churches? In my experience, no, it does not. It’s believed if you speak in tongues then you are more spiritual, powerful and more in touch with God than those who do not. Not only does the UPC teach you have to speak in tongues on the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, but you also have to do it repeatedly on cue when asked to “pray in the Spirit” during a church service. Also if you aren’t speaking in tongues pretty much on a daily basis, then you need to question your spirituality – therefore your salvation. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

*The Spirit issues the Gifts of the Spirit. I Cor 12:11. It is not a learned language.

*Do all speak in tongues? No. I Cor 12:30

*The Gifts of the Spirit were given to edify the body of Christ. Fruit of the Spirit is individual. The Gift of Tongues was not given so each believer could individually be speaking in tongues in a church service along with everybody else causing confusion.

*Acts 2:38 is misquoted by those raised in the UPC faith.

“Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” That’s it, that’s all. There is no “with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” in this verse.

Once again the United Pentecostal Church will try to say, “Well, what Paul meant was.” This is NOT what Paul meant. I think Paul could really say what he really meant to say, and he doesn’t need our help by putting words in his mouth. The UPC has added this in for the sake of trying to make an experience the basis for interpreting scripture. This again is ADDING to the word of God in no small manner, which is heretical.

The UPC has come up with its own doctrinal belief, and has to find ways to support it. If we took the Bible at its word and stopped mish-mashing and cherry-picking verses there would be a lot less hurtful confusion going around. This is no small matter. This is not a simple innocent error in interpretation. This literally changes the Gospel! I stand for the Word of God, and now boldly proclaim the UPC has it completely wrong on this teaching which robbed me of peace in Jesus for a majority of my life. To have a do-over, and be able to live my life resting in the beautiful salvation of Jesus would be a dream come true. However, if that had been my life then I wouldn’t be standing here now publicly shouting from the rooftops that the UPC has gotten it wrong since the late 1800’s – early 1900’s with the Azusa Street Revival.

Pointing out such errors in a belief system is not bitterness, nor is it anger. Do UPC preachers who stand behind their pulpits pointing out where they believe other denominations have gotten it wrong stem from a place of bitterness? I’ve never thought so.

I 100% believe in the Acts 2:38 message – just not the Acts 2:38 quoted by Pentecostals – know the difference! Pentecostals put the burden of obtaining salvation directly onto the individual. However, the Bible clearly states salvation is by BELIEF – not of works, lest any man would boast.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 5.

Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 3

The following is part three of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1 and Part 2.

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After leaving Bible College I still attended our United Pentecostal church for a good many years, and stayed faithful despite my lack of understanding. I was still just hoping when I died I would squeak into Heaven somehow. Looking back, I can see I was like a whipped puppy with its tail between its legs, hoping my master would be happy to see me instead of throwing me into a lake of tormenting fire for all of eternity.

Side-note…I’ve become an annihilationist, which believes a soul is not tormented in Hell for eternity. We believe the mortal body will die a second death in Hell after being judged for sin, and then that person will be dead for all of eternity. After all, Jesus said there would be a second death in Hell, and not a second life suffering for all of eternity. Here’s a link to this beautiful truth that our Lord is not a tormentor just because people reject him…scripture after scripture after scripture pointing out this very fact.

During my late 20’s my mom and I moved away from our church in Augusta to live in Northern Maine. Up north we attended a very small Pentecostal home church during our couple of years there. It was during this time I realized something about myself – I was really good at taking notes during services (writing down verses mentioned and small phrases to remind myself what was said about that verse). What I wasn’t good at was studying subjects out thoroughly. I wanted to make a change.

At some point the UPC had made and handed out to their people a laminated pamphlet that stated at the top of it, “I’m Pentecostal because”… Then below was listed phrases like, “I don’t wear pants because,” and the scripture locations for this subject. “I don’t wear jewelry because,” and then associated scriptures with jewelry. The list went on and on to cover two sides, but the interesting part is it started with what women were to do and not do.

As I determined to sit down and study out a subject I became confused with the very first scripture reference about why a woman wasn’t allowed to wear jewelry. Not only was a phrase lifted out of the verse, but other phrases were completely ignored! If this verse was to be taken at face value, then not only was jewelry not to be worn, but in addition to jewelry then neither was the color red to be worn, taking a bath, wearing fine leather sandals, doing your hair, and the list goes on and on. I WAS SHOCKED.

So I moved on to the next subject – why a woman shouldn’t dye her hair. Answer = one cannot make their hair black or white. WHAT?!?! This was the only verse on why we shouldn’t dye our hair? Well, neither can I make myself short or tall, but I wear heals. Neither can I make my hair curly or straight, but I sure do perm my hair and then straighten it with a straight iron sometimes. I couldn’t believe what I was actually reading. The UPC’s own pamphlet was the beginning of the end for UPC life for me. The scriptures themselves began to move me away from what I’d always been taught…BUT STILL I HAD AN ISSUE WITH TONGUES.

In my early 30’s I moved away from Maine to Michigan to marry the love of my life. When I moved here I found a UPC church to attend sometimes. The people there were (and are) very kind and loving. However, I felt I would never fit into a UPC crowd anymore. Because my standards were changing, I didn’t ‘look’ the part. I would never be asked to be used in any type of ministry because I didn’t ‘look’ the part. I was actually very grieved in my heart because I didn’t know what I was anymore. I couldn’t call myself Pentecostal as I no longer ‘looked’ the part. How many times do I have to say this? It didn’t matter that I held to all other beliefs. My outside standards weren’t up to par, so I would never truly fit in no matter how much I tried.

Once I had my own child I knew I didn’t want her growing up in a place where she would not fit in. I wanted to find an alternate church, but literally had no clue where to go. I WAS SCARED. I was afraid of being misled. I was afraid of false doctrine. I was afraid of finding a church where I ‘looked’ like I fit in, but it would be a ‘dead/dry’ church. So for many years I went nowhere, all the while still grieved in my heart that I would probably not make it to Heaven when I died.

The UPC does a fantastic job of circling the wagons around its own, giving them a false sense of security in their ‘full revelations’ of ‘no-error’ doctrine. No one has the full truth except them, which makes literally everybody else spiritually dangerous to the ‘real’ saints. Once a person leaves the UPC they don’t know who to trust. At times I truly felt I needed therapy because I would have such tormenting thoughts rolling around in my mind, yet I didn’t know who to go to for help.

I didn’t think anyone would truly understand me if they didn’t have some sort of UPC background. So I didn’t end up going to anyone with my troubles. Now I know of many others who are so traumatized by their experiences in the UPC that they have to take anti-anxiety meds before services just to be able to get through them. Others I know of for sure have had to go to therapy due to their Pentecostal church experiences. Why is this? Does this sound like overcoming lives? Why all of this mental hardship? Answer = legalism vs faith. When you are taught you have to constantly earn your salvation in a variety of ways, it becomes horrifically burdensome when you feel like you cannot measure up.

At 41 years old I remember time and again holding my little baby girl and feeling such love for her overwhelm me. Tears would roll down my cheeks just looking at her, and I wanted to give her every good and wonderful gift in life. In fact, when she was three months old, I was holding her and bawling my eyes out. When my mom saw my face, she asked me what in the world I was crying about so badly. No joke, I was having ’empty-nest’ syndrome. I couldn’t stop crying because my little girl was growing up too fast, and would leave me in about 18 years!

This would oftentimes bring my thoughts back to God who was supposed to love me even more than my all-consuming love for my daughter. How could he withhold a precious gift from me that he said he’d freely give? Why would he make me beg? Was there something so wrong with me that he wouldn’t accept me? What did I need to do in life to make him love me enough to give me the Holy Ghost? I’d dedicated years of my life to God, and the only other thing I could have done to show my sincerity was to probably become a nun…I was literally clueless.

So for many more years I didn’t know what to do in aspect of understanding God any better. To me he was confusing and his word was confusing. I don’t know how I loved him with my whole heart for so many years, yet was so terrified of him at the same time. In all these years I never walked away from him though. I just sat and did nothing, waiting for some relief in my soul.

When I was 44 I finally did something I had been scared to do for years – I went to a non-denominational church in my local area. I’d been debating it for months, but was scared to take that first step. Being so hyper vigilant against anything that wasn’t UPC had really done a good job of making other churches seem lost and not of God. I remember various quotes like, “they can be sincere, but sincerely wrong,” and “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” being said of other Christians. You see I was taught the UPC only had FULL truth. Other churches may have partial truth, but it’s not full truth. Therefore you can never go backwards to other churches because then you will be backslidden. What does backslidden really mean? It’s not what we were taught in the UPC, and it’s definitely not meant to be applied to someone who walks away from the UPC or any other denomination. If you’d like to know more, click on this link.

So one Sunday morning here I am sitting towards the back of this large church. Full of both suspicion and hope, I watched people mingling while waiting for the service to start. I was on high alert! The song service starts, and within moments I feel my familiar friend, Jesus, touch my heart. Tears begin coursing down my cheeks as I realize he’s in this church too, and these people aren’t ‘dangerous’. They want to be closer to God too – just like me.

This church wasn’t as demonstrative as a Pentecostal church is, but that was OK. I didn’t need whooping and hollering to feel like God was in the midst of the people. At one point during the song service a lady started giving a message in tongues, and boy was I amazed. Gifts of the Spirit were here too! Then the interpretation came, and it was at this very point in my life God began opening my heart to HIS truth. I will describe to the best of my ability what I remember from the interpretation of tongues. It was very powerful and moving. God’s message was this; “YOU ARE MY CHILD, AND YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MY CHILD. THE DEVIL HAS TRIED TO DECEIVE YOU AND TAKE YOU FROM MY HAND, BUT YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN HEAVEN, YOU WILL BE BY MY SIDE FOREVER.”

There was more to it than this as the lady interpreted for probably a minute, but I cannot remember exact details. The interpretation was so emphatic and full of authority. I felt God was speaking directly to me and addressing the doubts I’d had about him and salvation literally all of my life. However, a little seed of doubt began to sprout up…”what if this message wasn’t for me, but for someone else here?” Then the pastor got up and explained to the congregation what the gift of tongues and interpretation were, and why they had taken place. You see – this didn’t happen SO OFTEN at this church. The pastor had to explain it!

This confirmed this message indeed was from God to me on my very first visit at this church. God knew I needed something from him, and he gave it to me…HE GAVE IT TO ME! I still didn’t understand why I didn’t speak in tongues, but knew from that point on I didn’t have to fear going to hell anymore because I wasn’t able to ‘perform’ in tongues.

At 45 years old I began to be set-free from a mindset of fear. An unexpected variety of people were about to enter my life who would make the word of God plain. I am completely changed, and my life will never be the same! As I gradually began to understand from all of my studying, the beautiful peace of God began to wrap itself around my bruised heart and mind. My idea of who God was, and how he’d been dealing harshly with me began to change as I saw he was more loving and kind than I had been led to believe.

Legalism and erroneous doctrine had made his nature very harsh. This is now not the God I know and love with my whole heart. I’ve gone from confusion while reading my Bible to not being able to have enough study time. Now this doesn’t mean I don’t run into confusing things. I enjoy listening to teachings on a variety of subjects, and have found AMAZING people who rightly divide the word of truth. You know what’s become really fun? DEBATES! You want a fully rounded view on a subject? Listen to a debate, and then make up your own mind. You don’t have to be forced to agree with anybody or believe EVERYTHING they teach. God lets us make up our own minds on a large variety of issues, and his Spirit convicts and teaches us where needed.

NOW I feel God’s yoke is easy and burden light. NOW I can go to him without feeling like a whipped puppy. NOW I know I am a beloved child of God. NOW I don’t fear hell in the least. In fact (this may sound a little weird) I get excited tingles from time to time thinking that when I die I will get to see my Jesus face to face with no fear. No more squeaking into Heaven for me!
You know what else is easy? Speaking to others of the hope that is in me. I no longer feel inadequate. If God can do this for me, then he can do it for you too.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 4.

Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 2

The following is part two of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1.

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Growing up in the church I’m sure it seemed like I was a very well-rounded young person. On the outside I was happy and dedicated (and I was), yet on the inside I was full of turmoil that never subsided. I remember receiving awards at our end of the year school banquet for having Christian character (not my words, but those who issued the awards). I received the gym award almost every year, the principle’s award, supervisor’s award, and two-times pastor’s awards. These were the BIG-TIME awards, and I’d get one each year. I’m not bragging. I’m saying this to say it seemed to everyone else I was truly a good Christian young person (and I was). So how then could I still be begging for salvation 13 years after I became a part of the church? There I was developing the fruit of the Spirit, but didn’t recognize it for what it was because I couldn’t get past tongues. So shameful.

When I graduated from the Christian School at 18, I specifically remember feeling so lost and confused. School was over. I had no idea what to do with my life, and still didn’t know if I was saved. Full of fear and anguish, I told my mom I couldn’t live this church life anymore. I was going to walk away from God because I didn’t know what he wanted from me. I wasn’t going to walk away from him because I wanted the world – I WAS GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE I TRULY DIDN’T THINK HE WANTED ME.

I identified with the man in the Bible who buried his talents in the sand because he felt God was a hard taskmaster. Instead of using his talents, he didn’t want to lose his talents. Not only did I not know what my talents were or what I was supposed to do with them, I didn’t want to potentially lose anything God had given me.

I couldn’t go before the throne of God with boldness – I still didn’t know if I was saved. This was the mental battle of my life. I felt like God’s burden was heavy, his yoke was not easy for me, and I did not have peace that passed all understanding. What I did have was insecurity and fear. No matter how I turned myself inside out, dedicated myself to fasting, outreach, and gave tithes and offerings I just could not speak in tongues (especially an “adult tongue”). What good was I to the kingdom of God if I couldn’t even be assured of my own salvation?

My precious mother cried her eyes out when I told her how I was feeling. My mom was a tongue-talker, and oftentimes gave messages in tongues which would then be interpreted. To me she was amazing (and she is). She asked me if I’d be willing to go to CLC Bible College in Stockton, CA if she could scrape together the money on a single-parent’s salary. I told her I’d be willing to go. So off I went.

While at CLC I had the same struggle of course. Nothing changed for me spiritually while there, but because I didn’t know what else to do – I stayed at the college until a severe car accident forced me from returning for my last year as a music major. While there, however, a new concept was opened in my mind. One very prominent and well-known teacher, Daniel Segraves, taught women were not to cut their hair. This was the same teaching as my home church – no confusion – cut and dry belief. However, this teacher’s son, Mark Segraves, was also a teacher at the college who believed women could cut their hair. [Note from Lois: Mark once held license in the UPCI but has not for over a decade.] I was shocked! How could two ministers/teachers and father/son completely believe the opposite on such an important subject? Was there such a fine line in what I was taught that there could actually be another viewpoint? Turns out, yes, there is indeed another viewpoint (listen to debates).

Side note – oftentimes people who leave the UPC are credited with causing division. This is such a fallacy. There are huge divisions within itself and oftentimes even from church to church in the same section. When the division becomes too huge – a split takes place. There have been quite a few church splits over the years (no fault of ‘backsliders’). Not only are there splits, but some churches leave the UPC altogether over issues that cannot be agreed upon (no fault of ‘backsliders‘).

I can remember going to various churches within our district, some were even stricter than us while some were less. Everybody looking around at everybody else, judging in our minds who is better or not due to outward standards. But when we are taught to judge every outward appearance as Godliness then we become the best little judgers. The very nature of the UPC’s teaching on outward standards being so cut and dry naturally produces one of the most judgmental groups within Christianity. Side-note ended. Let’s continue with my story…

The severity of my inferiority was so monstrous that I didn’t date one guy while at CLC for 2.5 years. They all wanted to be preachers. Why would I date someone who wanted to be a preacher? I was STILL begging God to save me. How could I pray for God to save other people when I didn’t feel I was saved with any certainty?

To this day I don’t like praying out loud. It’s become such a phobia it turns my stomach when I hear my own voice in prayer. I can pray internally, feel the presence of God touching me and directing me, but am very quiet. However, if I’m in a church filled with people who are praying out loud, THEN I can pray loudly – as long as my own voice is drowned out. I believe all the years of verbally calling out to God to fill me with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues became a torment. Gradually over time my voice quieted with doubt. So then I started praying for God to forgive me for my doubt and “help my unbelief”. God said if I asked, I’d be given what I asked for. If I knocked – he’d open the door to me, yet I felt so shut out. What was wrong with me?

My pastor often preached about the unwise virgins who let their oil run low therefore being unable to go with the bridegroom when he came. For us in this current age this meant we had to continually show we were full of the Holy Ghost by speaking in tongues. I was so going to Hell, but not by choice. This led to another thought as I didn’t understand how having the Holy Ghost could be compared to needing gas in a car. You either have it or you don’t, right? It’s not like you’ll run low like a car does, and somehow not be able to make it in the rapture because you don’t have enough Holy Ghost to fly you all the way up to the Heavens.

My pastor also shared a story from his past where he couldn’t feel the presence of God for like a full day. No matter how much he prayed and cried he just couldn’t feel God like normal. This scared him so much, and he thought God was taking his Spirit from him and rejecting him, like God had rejected King Saul. When my pastor could finally feel God’s presence again, he wept like a baby. I would often think to myself that if my pastor felt this horrific terror of possibly being rejected after only one day, then he really had no idea what it was like to be in my shoes of feeling rejected for years.
For a long time I mistakenly corresponded speaking in tongues with having the Holy Spirit. The presence of God moving within us is not tongues, and this was one of my greatest misunderstandings. For I knew what the presence of God was and felt like. I’d been experiencing him from the time I was a very little girl.

I think in many of our United Pentecostal churches today, people assume just because ‘tongues’ are present in a service it means what’s happening is of God. This is hugely erroneous. Just think of churches that do snake handling and poison drinking…I’ve seen videos where tongues are being spoken in the background of those services too. Anyone believe God condones that? Tongues are NOT the basis of judging whether a situation is right or not. God doesn’t take his Spirit from us when we do something bad, and then give his Spirit back to us after the bad thing is over. I’ve even heard some people say they speak in tongues while having sex. Yup, I just said that. GROSS! Is this really what the Holy Spirit was given for? REALLY?

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 3.