Category: United Pentecostal Church | Page 47

Getting Out the Old Books: Joy Haney

(This was written for the Facebook group, Breaking Out, which is why there are references the reader may not be familiar with.)

Here is some more on women being an abomination unto God and contributing to homosexuality in society if women wear pants, this time by the well known author, Joy Haney.

In her book A Call to Holiness, Joy Haney tells a lot of stories to create the groundwork that she lays for why women should wear skirts and dresses. They are stories on personal experiences and discussions she has had with people about modesty and the behavior of a strict Jewish group who also teaches against pants on women. What this means is that the stories she tells are subjective. They are her experiences and personal opinions about why women should wear skirts. She talks about identification such as policemen wearing police uniforms, etc. She asks us “Who is going to clothe us, God or self?” (pg 121)

In this, she uses reasoning to lead the reader into coming to her same conclusions. The implication is that if you don’t agree with her, you probably are not allowing God to clothe you.

She says “Modesty of dress is carried over into the New Testament and commanded in the New Testament church, which is under the new dispensation of grace. God still instructs the women how to dress.” (pg 123) She then says “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.”…”I say, God teach me how to dress, because I want your approval.” (pg 124) She talks about an attitude of rebellion….the “power suit,” the world being caught up in fashion. (pg 126).

Many of the things she says here are Christian principles, mostly. The snag here is that the majority of Christians agree with these principles-it is the application she makes with her reasoning that we disagree on. She gets you shaking your head, yes, yes, yes. Modesty is needed…we want to submit ourselves to God in the area of how we dress….we want God’s approval….we don’t want to be caught up in fashion etc. etc.

To these things, we presumably agree but she ties it into wearing skirts specifically. If you disagree with her opinions the implications are that….you are not allowing God to clothe you, you are not modest, you are in rebellion which is as the sin of witchcraft!! Let’s take this to it’s logical conclusion…if you disagree with the idea that pants are not for women…and if believing that is being in rebellion….and if rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft…and practicing witchcraft sends you into hell, guess where you are going if you wear pants! She doesn’t say this, but it is implied.

She goes on “In the New Testament, Paul, who was moved on by the Holy Ghost, explained that sins and immorality of people would lead to further sins of homosexuality and lesbianism.” She goes on to quote Romans 1:21, 24-28. (pg 134)

See here, just as DK Bernard did, that she links women wearing pants with homosexuality and lesbianism!

She goes on “These sinners received recompense for their own ways….they chose not to listen to God’s Word, so he gave them up to their own sin.” (Pg 134)

This is some pretty heavy stuff! Keep in mind that the reader may agree with all the principles taught here. The reader may even agree with Joy Haney’s thought that if all women started butch cutting their hair and living like men that it may cause gender confusion. The reader may only disagree with one thing: that women wearing pants isn’t disobeying Deut 22:5 because there are many feminine styled pants out there that women can wear and yet easily stay within this principle!

Joy Haney does not come right out and say “Pants are men’s apparel for western society” like DK Bernard does. However, she uses a lot of reasoning, such as the word katasole in 1 Tim 2:9 is translated “long robe” and then says “A robe is not pants.” (pg 133) (And of course, since all people wore robes in that day, it would make sense that they were talking about robes.) She also quotes Proverbs 31 and says the word covered in that verse means “to place or spread something over” or to “conceal, screen or shield.” (pg 139) To this, she then gives her opinion that women should wear skirts by asking the questions “How could a woman spread pants over the body?” Keep in mind, this is her opinion and that the biblical text doesn’t actually say anything about skirts or pants.

Here is where so many in the United Pentecostal Church get caught up in so much fear. It is really and truly okay if Joy Haney wants to wear skirts for the reasons she outlines. But it is really and truly also okay for you to have a different opinion. The Bible doesn’t say women must wear skirts. People take this scripture and have an opinion about it’s application. That’s all. That doesn’t mean if you wear pants as a woman you are an abomination to God. It doesn’t mean you are a rebel. It doesn’t mean you are practicing any form of witchcraft. It certainly doesn’t mean you are going to hell. It means you have a different opinion about how to apply this scripture to your life. And that’s okay. And all the people who want to practice it as wearing skirts….that’s okay too!

The problem doesn’t lie with having an opinion one way or the other. We are all free to have our opinions and apply them as we wish. What is not okay is having an opinion one way or another and accusing someone of not listening to “God’s Word” because they have a different opinion. Or accusing them of being rebellious or promoting homosexuality or lesbianism because they don’t apply the verse in the same way.

I am including photos of the excerpts if you want to take the time to read all of it for yourself: Page 119, page 120, page 121, page 122, page 123, page 124, page 125, page 126, page 132, page 133, page 134, page 135, page 136, page 137, page 138, page 139, page 140.

Getting Out the Old Books: The Literal Word by M.D. Treece
Getting Out the Old Books: Guardians of His Glory by Gary & Linda Reed
Getting Out the Old Books: David F. Gray
Getting Out the Old Books: Joy Haney
Getting Out The Old Books: Larry L. Booker
Getting Out the Old Books: Power Before the Throne
Getting Out the Newer Books: Wholly Holy: The Vital Role of Visible Devotion
Search For Truth On Holiness

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Marriage Trouble Part 3

Some of the things I remember that were negative about all the power I was giving my husband was I was busy trying to be so perfect. If my husband was less than happy it would really break my heart. One time he was unhappy for a whole week. I can’t even tell you what that did to me but I will say this. I got so desperate I asked God for help.

I gave up trying to make my husband happy by being a good wife. It wasn’t working. Debi Pearl was wrong! But after I prayed my husband called me on the phone on his way home from work and I was really raw with my emotions. I think God helped me by being able to get really honest with what I was feeling like. My husband had a long talk with me that night and it seemed he was a changed man. It was supernatural. Debi didn’t save us, God did. Debi put me in bondage to my husband.

We were having some financial problems and my husband wanted me to go to work. I told him I would learn to be frugal but that I couldn’t go to work. We had 3 children at the time. It wasn’t only because I was indoctrinated not to go to work. I also had some personal traumas about working with men coworkers. I also did not want to leave my children with strangers because of traumatic things I experienced as a child. I’ve always been very adamant about staying home. I don’t care what anybody says. That’s deeply ingrained into me. Yes, mommy issues again.

So for years I lived on change and a small allowance bi-weekly on payday. If I needed to use the bank card I asked permission. This wasn’t only because of my husband. It was also partly because I didn’t trust myself with money.

I think this came from the book too because I didn’t trust myself. Like I said my husband was very whimsical and I had to adapt. It was all on me to make everything work or rather, seem to work.

I felt so small and dependent, like a little kid. I didn’t have as much passion for God anymore. God thought I was inferior according to the Pearls. They never said it that way but that’s what happened in my experience as a result of their teachings.

I think what saved me is listening to my Bible CDs. I was coming across a lot of stuff that the book didn’t mention. It became clear that I needed to not pick up that book anymore and only read my Bible.

To be continued.

Marriage Trouble Part 1
Marriage Trouble Part 2
Marriage Trouble Part 3
Marriage Trouble Part 4
Marriage Trouble Part 5

Marriage Trouble Part 2

Continued from part 1

Some positive things I gleaned from ‘Created to be His Help Meet’ was learning to be thankful and cheerful. I was probably stuck on living opposite most of the time. So this convicted me and I really appreciated it because I knew she had to have a real point there. Besides, I remembered my mother was often discontent and how that affected my parents marriage which ended in divorce.

I learned to be more organized with meals and keep things simple. I learned to ask my husband what are some simple things I can do to keep the house tidy enough. What were his main peeves? This really helped me a lot not to be overwhelmed and feel like a failure.

Positive to negative: I learned to be extremely flexible with my whimsical husband who was also a bit of a ‘Command Man.’ Well, he had some blind spots. He seemed to love the change in me. But I made a big mistake. I told him I wanted to submit better and almost perfectly. By this I meant that even for things I had qualms about. I would defer to him for concerns of conscience regarding some gray areas. I got the idea that I shouldn’t trust myself. Now my husband was to be the spiritual leader regardless of spiritual maturity and that God would ultimately be correcting and convicting him.

Debi Pearl used a lot of scripture and I didn’t look into the ways she used them. I started realizing later that some of the verses she cited were used in a highly questionable way. During Bible reading I would come across verses of scripture that seemed like it could clash with some things she was teaching women.

Another problem is I would be really bewildered about the way she treated the women in her letters. It was downright knife twisting mean! I felt sorry for these women. I wanted to write a letter to Debi Pearl but I was just too busy with raising the children and besides, I was afraid I might receive a verbally abusive letter. So I shrugged figuring she was just over passionate and she was wrong to be so mean but I’d just chew the meat and spit out the bones. I still had it in my mind that this book was an answer to prayer, so Debi’s zeal, while I felt it was wrong, I thought it might be there for a reason. Maybe she’d seen too many marriages die just like my mother’s.

To be continued.

Marriage Trouble Part 1
Marriage Trouble Part 2
Marriage Trouble Part 3
Marriage Trouble Part 4
Marriage Trouble Part 5

Dressing Modestly or To Impress?

According to the dictionary the word modesty can mean several different things and I chose the following:
1. free from ostentation or showy extravagance
2. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.

Many women in the United Pentecostal Church will tell you they wear skirts and dresses for their own conviction on modesty not because of the teaching in their churches. That may be so but how can convictions be born without the teaching?

Many scriptures have been used to support their convictions from Deuteronomy 22:5 through 1 Timothy 2:9 and they have certainly been twisted to make their case for what they deem is proper attire for women.

I want to look at 1 Timothy 2:9 since this is a commonly quoted scripture to support their cause. This is a letter to Timothy from the Apostle Paul;

“I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,” 1 Timothy 2:9, NIV

This verse begins the second main section of chapter 2, which extends to the end of the chapter at verse 15. The theme is that of the role of women in Christian worship. When believers gather together, how should women function? The first statement made by Paul here uses the term hōsautōs, meaning “likewise.” Paul has just made mention of prayer and its importance. Women, therefore, are to share in similar godly actions as the men of the church. What Paul says here, then, is not a unique principle for women as much as a specific application for women.

Specifically, this refers to how women dressed and cared for their hair. Then, as now, church gatherings were not an appropriate time to dress seductively or for attention. Clothing styles vary, and tastes change based on time and culture. All the same, how women (and men) dress should be appropriate for worship of God.

Second, women were not to focus on “braided hair.” This is another comment requiring careful cultural understanding. Paul’s point is not that certain hairstyles are necessarily sinful; rather, the message and the motives are. In the culture of Ephesus, braided hair was a luxurious status symbol. In that era, it required much time and financial costs. This was the equivalent of modern hairstyles requiring significant time and cost. Those who put so much energy into hairstyles suggest that their emphasis is on themselves, rather than on worshiping God.

Further, Paul addresses fancy clothes and flashy jewelry. These items are mentioned because of the focus on using money on self rather than to help others (1 Timothy 6:10). Once again, no particular piece of jewelry, or clothing, is being called out as explicitly sinful. The message and effect have to be considered. Then, as now, worship services are not intended to be treated as a prom, social event, or a party where women—or men—”dress to impress.” These are times to worship God and focus on Him. Self-promoting clothes not only distract others from the point of a church gathering, they distract the one who is overly concerned with their appearance.

How many times have you been to any kind of UPC conference, whether it is ladies conference, district conference or general conference, and the women are dressed to impress in their designer clothes and shoes and their elaborate hairstyles as are the men in their $1,000 suits and gold watches and their Lincolns and Cadillacs?

Paul never mentions that women and men are dressed to distinguish between men and women. That is all made up rules of the UPC and twisting scripture to support it. But Paul does admonish those who spend a lot of money on their clothes and dress to impress others of their spirituality.

Taking into consideration of our culture and fashion changes, it doesn’t matter whether we wear a skirt or a pair of jeans as long as we are not dressing seductively or for attention. God wants our attention. He wants both men and women to be in prayer and worship focused on Him.

Getting Out the Old Books: David F. Gray

I recently wrote this for the Facebook group Breaking Out. I had written on skirts a couple times before this was written, which is why there are references to circular logic and other writings.

I’ve recently gotten out all my old WAP books out of an old trunk. Even though, back in the day we were dirt poor, I always allowed myself one splurge and that was Word Aflame Press books (those were always sold at camp, etc.) and so I have a whole trunk full of them. I’ve dusted them off and so I intend to write whatever comes to mind. Pardon the focus on skirts for the time being, but, once again, I am concentrating on circular logic. In these comments you will see not only circular logic but subtle spiritual abuse while the circular logic is being used. I am using these books because they are in print and, as often is needed when refuting these subjects, proven to have been said. I find even when quoting books that people claim things were taken out of context or what have you and yet over and over, author after author, the same patterns are seen. So, again skirts, but this time, a different author.

David F. Gray was an old time Pentecostal preacher. I heard him preach a couple of times at Oklahoma camp meeting, probably in the 1980’s. He wrote a few books. From the book Questions Pentecostals Ask Volume 2 pages 120-125, he is refuting a book that had been circulating that spoke against standards. I will quote pieces and parts of this and weed out the parts that are circular and abusive. Keep in mind that these things sound softer and seem not as bad couched in certain terminology which is why spiritual abuse and circular logic is subtle. However, the words are there and often, shocking when weeded out:

David Gray: “I have read the book in it’s entirety.” (Some are) “looking for an excuse to compromise these issues…and the downright untrue statements…concerning women wearing men’s clothing….the book is false and spurious….the author tries to destroy the credibility of Deut 22:5.”

David Gray makes the accusations that if you disagree with his opinions on what is women’s apparel that you are a compromiser. He doesn’t say this to YOU, as the reader, but lets you know his opinion about people who disagree with him by talking about those who compromise as if you are his audience and he is speaking to you about those “other” people….so you don’t have to feel bad about what he says personally, but he steers you away from any other opinion. He also accuses the author of the book at the same time (and we have not read the book so we don’t know) of trying to destroy the very credibility of a biblical verse.

He goes on refuting a lot of other arguments from the book. Then he says “The statement that slacks are women’s clothes is simply not true.” He then goes on to talk about an advertisement that also suggested women should wear men’s shirts and ties along with pants. He then says “The world is more honest than some Christians who want to compromise. They know, even though some carnal Christians argue otherwise, that women’s slacks were actually taken over from men’s pants.” He makes a declaration that slacks are not women’s apparel. He declares this to you, having no authority over you. He says that Christians who disagree with him are just people who want to compromise. He calls them carnal. He makes a statement that we all know is true, which is that women in America used to wear dresses and implies that carnal Christians deny this, when I don’t know of anyone who ever has.

This argument, which is not an argument that is even being used, is used to throw you off the trail of the real argument (called a “straw man argument”). It’s important to be able to see past the bunny trail arguments and see the crux of the matter….that there are accusations and browbeating happening here to bolster a weak argument. This is an example of legalism. A true conservative believer in wearing skirts does not need to bolster their argument because they have nothing to prove. They just believe what they believe for themselves and are happy to live the way they live. When I see accusations and browbeating, I am certain I am dealing with legalism and not true conservatism.

He goes on to talk about the abominable being thrown into the lake of fire. Then he says “Evidently God considers wearing the clothing of the opposite sex to be terribly significant, because he calls it an abomination unto Himself.” Understand what he is saying here. If you disagree with his opinions and are unable to sift through the straw man argument and defend yourself against the accusations, you will fear being cast into hell if you are not like-minded. This is how so many are “convicted” to wear skirts. Again, there is nothing wrong with wearing skirts in honor of this verse. The wrong is putting people into a mind-prison of fear of being cast into hell for disagreeing with the thought process. Different people think different things and have different opinions and that’s okay!

He goes on to say that people who say they’re going to heaven and yet “wear the clothing of the opposite sex” (read the implication) “there shall in no wise enter into” (the kingdom of heaven). He won’t come right out and say it. He makes you think the Bible is saying it but it’s not! The Bible is not saying it, he is twisting the Bible to agree with his opinion. But he is saying if you don’t agree with his opinion that women’s clothing is skirts and men’s clothing is pants and if you don’t apply that to your life, you are going to hell. He declares this. The Bible does not.

He ends with some good words “Any book that leads people astray should be rejected, lest some gullible, unstable soul be influenced by it.” Good words, indeed.

David F. Gray has since passed away and is no longer with us.

I am including photos of the excerpts if you want to take the time to read all of it for yourself: Page 119, page 120, page 121, page 122, page 123, page 124, page 125.

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