Category: my experience

The following is part four of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3.

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I will now begin the process of sharing to the best of my ability my journey to REALLY understanding my place in the kingdom of God. However, I don’t want anyone to take my word at face value – study it out. Listen to a variety of teachers on confusing subjects. Take your time, and know God will bless those who seek him. Please also understand, despite what you were taught about having to believe everything a denomination teaches you word for word without any variance or personal opinion, that this is not Biblical and NOT what God designed for his people, the church. I’m not suggesting people need to leave their denominations either. Just be aware when you align yourself with some denominations you oftentimes have to agree to their rules and regulations to be considered “right with God”.

One thing I’ve learned over time is instead of being imagers of Christ we have instead become imagers of denominations.
With some denominations your whole value as a Christian will be based on what you “look” like.
It doesn’t matter what gifts you’ve been given by the Holy Spirit, and it doesn’t matter what important role you have in the body of Christ. You will not be put into any position of ministry because you have not imaged the denomination properly. However, you best still sit in the pew and pay your tithes and give offerings – your money will gladly be used.
Once you have either been guilt-tripped into imaging the denomination again, you will then be considered “spiritual enough” to be in ministry, or you will walk away from the denomination knowing your place is no longer there.

Instead of being shaped into the image of Christ through the development of the Fruit of the Spirit, if we let ourselves we’ll be conformed to religions of this world.
Instead of teaching folks to listen to the voice of God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict where needed, the denomination has decided everything for its saints from the top down producing carbon copies of itself.
Seems a lot like idolatry to me…a denomination trying to mold people into its own image.

I was introduced to a Facebook page called SpiritualAbuse.Org when a certain man who’d been a part of my previous church had been charged with multiple cases of molestation was listed there. Originally I thought this page was primarily about molestation by spiritual leaders, but soon realized it was MUCH MORE THAN THIS. This page was FILLED with help for people who had been spiritually abused in any variety of manner. It also included a ton of information on every subject common to the UPC where pros and cons are clearly stated. You can read/listen to various subjects, and then make up your own mind on where you stand. You see, at this point I hadn’t realized spiritual abuse included me somehow.

Now I know the teaching about tongues being necessary for salvation is so hugely erroneous and is a heretical teaching. An alternate salvation was taught to me. Had this false teaching not been pushed on me from the time I was a little child, I don’t know where I would be in Christ right now. The thought of living for the Lord without all of the guilt and shame I carried for all of these years seems nothing short of idyllic. I can barely grasp the concept.

So why do I mention heresy? It’s so much more than just an error in interpretation or an alternate opinion over a trivial matter. “Heresy is sinful because the heretic commits idolatry by making his own beliefs the object of his desire instead of God who is the truth.” The UPC has made an experience determine how they interpret scripture instead of interpreting scripture correctly, and then defining their lives around that interpretation. Don’t believe me? Read I Corinthians 14, and see if church services function like the Bible says they should function. To be fair, I don’t think many churches do.

In no way am I stating in any way, shape or form those who teach tongues for salvation are malicious or somehow have ulterior motives. They’ve been taught this by their peers, and their peers by their peers. The cycle continues. I was once a part of this cycle for 25 years. I wasn’t mean, but I did think I was right. However, I’m thankful that understanding and peace have finally come to me after all of this time, and I pray my testimony reaches many others.

Another thing I’ve come to realize is so many feel like a denomination has saved them with the help of God, instead of recognizing God has saved them through people who have segregated themselves into a denomination. So they become afraid to leave that particular church or denomination. They can’t venture out anywhere else or their salvation will be in jeopardy.

So how did I come to this conclusion that receiving the Holy Spirit didn’t need to be accompanied with speaking in tongues? Well, I can tell you it wasn’t because I wanted to jump to a conclusion to make myself feel better. If it was that easy then I could have just faked speaking in tongues, and deceived myself into thinking what I was doing “was the real thing.”
When I first heard a former Pentecostal preacher/pastor state tongues wasn’t for salvation – I WAS SHOCKED! I thought, “How can he say that?! Could it be true? I need to look more into this.” So began my delving into debates on tongues, and getting my hands on every article I could read about the subject. I thought my head would explode with all of the information I was trying to take in. If tongues were indeed not necessary for salvation, than why had I been taught this? Forty years of anguish were about to be wiped away.

Please know I’m just touching on various scriptures, and not listing a full view of all verses. These are for reference to share an idea, and can be further studied out.

RECEIVING THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES
PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES – IT EQUALS MINDSET

* The Spirit came on/in people in the Old Testament, which enabled them to do a variety of things. When the Holy Spirit was present, his power was enough to accomplish tasks through willing men. The Spirit is literally all over the Old Testament, helping mankind do the will of God, and here are just a few examples…

Bezalel is “filled” with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).

Sampson performs feats of strength when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him (Judges 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29; Luke 2:25).

So here we come to the New Testament covenant…

Why would the Holy Spirit not be powerful enough to accomplish various tasks now unless a person is actually speaking in tongues? Has the Spirit somehow become weak or inhibited in the New Testament? Is the Holy Spirit now dependent on man to be speaking an unknown language to be powerful? I THINK NOT.

How do we know the Holy Spirit is present? Well, just like in the Old Testament – we accomplish whatever it is that God wants us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

*Notice what Paul does in his spirit (lower case ‘s’) is not being done with the Holy Spirit (capital ‘S’) in I Cor 14:13-15. Nowhere in the Bible is Deity referenced with a lower case ‘s’. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man (his spirit) – not God’s Spirit.

*We are told to pray ALWAYS with the Spirit. Eph 6:18 – shall we take this to mean we should only ever pray in tongues or it’s unacceptable? Of course not.

*When Jesus told his disciples how to pray, he did not say they would have an alternate prayer language one day that would make them more powerful prayer warriors. Luke 11:1-13.

*During Paul’s conversion the Bible never says he spoke in tongues. Some would like to ASSUME he did, but this is to promote a doctrinal belief rather than taking the Bible at its word.

*Paul did later say he spoke in tongues more than anybody else. OF COURSE HE DID – HE WAS AN EVANGELIST. He traveled to a variety of countries to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. How else was he supposed to accomplish this? Hire an interpreter? Oh wait…he had one! The Holy Spirit was with him helping with the Gift of Tongues to overcome the language barrier.

*Tongues given on the day of Pentecost were LANGUAGES that could be interpreted – not something you have to learn to do. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible you have “baby” tongues or “adult” tongues? No. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible that some people will not be able to be saved if they cannot speak in tongues? No. Does it ever say in the Bible that it will take some people longer to be saved than others because some have a hard time speaking in tongues? No. Does it ever say some will need to tarry at the altar time and again to be saved because they can’t speak in tongues for the first few hundred times they ask? No.

*Paul states he wishes everyone would speak in tongues, but not everyone did. I’m sure he also wished everyone were sinless, yet no one is. Just because he wished something to be so, doesn’t mean it is so. He rather states that tongues is not the greater gift, but prophecy is. I Cor 14:5.

*Nowhere does Paul ever state there are two types of tongues (first infilling of the Holy Ghost and a Gift of the Spirit). This in itself speaks volumes. Additionally, if we are to believe that there are two types of tongues, then are we supposed to believe there are also two types of all of the Gifts of the Spirit? If not, why not? Why just tongues?

*Paul states IF someone does speak in tongues they should also pray to interpret. I Cor 14:13. I have never heard a preacher get up and tell people prophecy is the greater gift, and if someone speaks in tongues then they should also pray to interpret. It seems to me that tongues is sought after more than any other gift in our day, just like it was in Paul’s day, and he was literally critiquing them for it. However, in our day not only is the Gift of Tongues more coveted, but a whole denomination has been made out of the practice. I think if the Apostle Paul walked into these churches today, he wouldn’t be giving a happy clap on the back and saying “well done.”

*Paul goes on to say if there’s no one to interpret tongues in the church then to keep quiet. He’s not forbidding tongues, but he’s telling them when and how it should be used. Does this sound like anything that happens in our churches? In my experience, no, it does not. It’s believed if you speak in tongues then you are more spiritual, powerful and more in touch with God than those who do not. Not only does the UPC teach you have to speak in tongues on the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, but you also have to do it repeatedly on cue when asked to “pray in the Spirit” during a church service. Also if you aren’t speaking in tongues pretty much on a daily basis, then you need to question your spirituality – therefore your salvation. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

*The Spirit issues the Gifts of the Spirit. I Cor 12:11. It is not a learned language.

*Do all speak in tongues? No. I Cor 12:30

*The Gifts of the Spirit were given to edify the body of Christ. Fruit of the Spirit is individual. The Gift of Tongues was not given so each believer could individually be speaking in tongues in a church service along with everybody else causing confusion.

*Acts 2:38 is misquoted by those raised in the UPC faith.

“Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” That’s it, that’s all. There is no “with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” in this verse.

Once again the United Pentecostal Church will try to say, “Well, what Paul meant was.” This is NOT what Paul meant. I think Paul could really say what he really meant to say, and he doesn’t need our help by putting words in his mouth. The UPC has added this in for the sake of trying to make an experience the basis for interpreting scripture. This again is ADDING to the word of God in no small manner, which is heretical.

The UPC has come up with its own doctrinal belief, and has to find ways to support it. If we took the Bible at its word and stopped mish-mashing and cherry-picking verses there would be a lot less hurtful confusion going around. This is no small matter. This is not a simple innocent error in interpretation. This literally changes the Gospel! I stand for the Word of God, and now boldly proclaim the UPC has it completely wrong on this teaching which robbed me of peace in Jesus for a majority of my life. To have a do-over, and be able to live my life resting in the beautiful salvation of Jesus would be a dream come true. However, if that had been my life then I wouldn’t be standing here now publicly shouting from the rooftops that the UPC has gotten it wrong since the late 1800’s – early 1900’s with the Azusa Street Revival.

Pointing out such errors in a belief system is not bitterness, nor is it anger. Do UPC preachers who stand behind their pulpits pointing out where they believe other denominations have gotten it wrong stem from a place of bitterness? I’ve never thought so.

I 100% believe in the Acts 2:38 message – just not the Acts 2:38 quoted by Pentecostals – know the difference! Pentecostals put the burden of obtaining salvation directly onto the individual. However, the Bible clearly states salvation is by BELIEF – not of works, lest any man would boast.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 5.

The following is part two of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1.

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Growing up in the church I’m sure it seemed like I was a very well-rounded young person. On the outside I was happy and dedicated (and I was), yet on the inside I was full of turmoil that never subsided. I remember receiving awards at our end of the year school banquet for having Christian character (not my words, but those who issued the awards). I received the gym award almost every year, the principle’s award, supervisor’s award, and two-times pastor’s awards. These were the BIG-TIME awards, and I’d get one each year. I’m not bragging. I’m saying this to say it seemed to everyone else I was truly a good Christian young person (and I was). So how then could I still be begging for salvation 13 years after I became a part of the church? There I was developing the fruit of the Spirit, but didn’t recognize it for what it was because I couldn’t get past tongues. So shameful.

When I graduated from the Christian School at 18, I specifically remember feeling so lost and confused. School was over. I had no idea what to do with my life, and still didn’t know if I was saved. Full of fear and anguish, I told my mom I couldn’t live this church life anymore. I was going to walk away from God because I didn’t know what he wanted from me. I wasn’t going to walk away from him because I wanted the world – I WAS GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE I TRULY DIDN’T THINK HE WANTED ME.

I identified with the man in the Bible who buried his talents in the sand because he felt God was a hard taskmaster. Instead of using his talents, he didn’t want to lose his talents. Not only did I not know what my talents were or what I was supposed to do with them, I didn’t want to potentially lose anything God had given me.

I couldn’t go before the throne of God with boldness – I still didn’t know if I was saved. This was the mental battle of my life. I felt like God’s burden was heavy, his yoke was not easy for me, and I did not have peace that passed all understanding. What I did have was insecurity and fear. No matter how I turned myself inside out, dedicated myself to fasting, outreach, and gave tithes and offerings I just could not speak in tongues (especially an “adult tongue”). What good was I to the kingdom of God if I couldn’t even be assured of my own salvation?

My precious mother cried her eyes out when I told her how I was feeling. My mom was a tongue-talker, and oftentimes gave messages in tongues which would then be interpreted. To me she was amazing (and she is). She asked me if I’d be willing to go to CLC Bible College in Stockton, CA if she could scrape together the money on a single-parent’s salary. I told her I’d be willing to go. So off I went.

While at CLC I had the same struggle of course. Nothing changed for me spiritually while there, but because I didn’t know what else to do – I stayed at the college until a severe car accident forced me from returning for my last year as a music major. While there, however, a new concept was opened in my mind. One very prominent and well-known teacher, Daniel Segraves, taught women were not to cut their hair. This was the same teaching as my home church – no confusion – cut and dry belief. However, this teacher’s son, Mark Segraves, was also a teacher at the college who believed women could cut their hair. [Note from Lois: Mark once held license in the UPCI but has not for over a decade.] I was shocked! How could two ministers/teachers and father/son completely believe the opposite on such an important subject? Was there such a fine line in what I was taught that there could actually be another viewpoint? Turns out, yes, there is indeed another viewpoint (listen to debates).

Side note – oftentimes people who leave the UPC are credited with causing division. This is such a fallacy. There are huge divisions within itself and oftentimes even from church to church in the same section. When the division becomes too huge – a split takes place. There have been quite a few church splits over the years (no fault of ‘backsliders’). Not only are there splits, but some churches leave the UPC altogether over issues that cannot be agreed upon (no fault of ‘backsliders‘).

I can remember going to various churches within our district, some were even stricter than us while some were less. Everybody looking around at everybody else, judging in our minds who is better or not due to outward standards. But when we are taught to judge every outward appearance as Godliness then we become the best little judgers. The very nature of the UPC’s teaching on outward standards being so cut and dry naturally produces one of the most judgmental groups within Christianity. Side-note ended. Let’s continue with my story…

The severity of my inferiority was so monstrous that I didn’t date one guy while at CLC for 2.5 years. They all wanted to be preachers. Why would I date someone who wanted to be a preacher? I was STILL begging God to save me. How could I pray for God to save other people when I didn’t feel I was saved with any certainty?

To this day I don’t like praying out loud. It’s become such a phobia it turns my stomach when I hear my own voice in prayer. I can pray internally, feel the presence of God touching me and directing me, but am very quiet. However, if I’m in a church filled with people who are praying out loud, THEN I can pray loudly – as long as my own voice is drowned out. I believe all the years of verbally calling out to God to fill me with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues became a torment. Gradually over time my voice quieted with doubt. So then I started praying for God to forgive me for my doubt and “help my unbelief”. God said if I asked, I’d be given what I asked for. If I knocked – he’d open the door to me, yet I felt so shut out. What was wrong with me?

My pastor often preached about the unwise virgins who let their oil run low therefore being unable to go with the bridegroom when he came. For us in this current age this meant we had to continually show we were full of the Holy Ghost by speaking in tongues. I was so going to Hell, but not by choice. This led to another thought as I didn’t understand how having the Holy Ghost could be compared to needing gas in a car. You either have it or you don’t, right? It’s not like you’ll run low like a car does, and somehow not be able to make it in the rapture because you don’t have enough Holy Ghost to fly you all the way up to the Heavens.

My pastor also shared a story from his past where he couldn’t feel the presence of God for like a full day. No matter how much he prayed and cried he just couldn’t feel God like normal. This scared him so much, and he thought God was taking his Spirit from him and rejecting him, like God had rejected King Saul. When my pastor could finally feel God’s presence again, he wept like a baby. I would often think to myself that if my pastor felt this horrific terror of possibly being rejected after only one day, then he really had no idea what it was like to be in my shoes of feeling rejected for years.
For a long time I mistakenly corresponded speaking in tongues with having the Holy Spirit. The presence of God moving within us is not tongues, and this was one of my greatest misunderstandings. For I knew what the presence of God was and felt like. I’d been experiencing him from the time I was a very little girl.

I think in many of our United Pentecostal churches today, people assume just because ‘tongues’ are present in a service it means what’s happening is of God. This is hugely erroneous. Just think of churches that do snake handling and poison drinking…I’ve seen videos where tongues are being spoken in the background of those services too. Anyone believe God condones that? Tongues are NOT the basis of judging whether a situation is right or not. God doesn’t take his Spirit from us when we do something bad, and then give his Spirit back to us after the bad thing is over. I’ve even heard some people say they speak in tongues while having sex. Yup, I just said that. GROSS! Is this really what the Holy Spirit was given for? REALLY?

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 3.

The following is part one of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member.

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As a very young child of about 5 years old I began attending Sunday school at a United Pentecostal Church in Augusta, ME with my cousins, and I LOVED IT! When I was a 10-year-old girl, my mom started attending our local UPC regularly, and I LOVED IT! I even got to switch out of public school to the UPC’s Christian School, and I LOVED IT! I feel like I blossomed after being moved out of public school into the Christian school at around 10 years old. The church, school, community, and all its functions were some of the best things that ever happened to me. I am thankful for the people who invested in me from the time I was a small child. I love most of the memories I made, and love the people who were part of my community.

Now in hindsight I realize some of the things I struggled with, that tore at the very core of my being, I should never have had to go through and neither do countless others. Due to these same issues many people sit on pews wondering at their place within the church. Some walk away giving up on God altogether, and others, like me, walk away from the UPC – but not God. However, we’re considered ‘backslidden‘ or ‘prodigals’. My previous pastor said this to me not so long ago in a kind tone of voice. I’m being serious – he’s known me since I was 5 years old, and he was being lovingly kind about it.

I can remember praying with all of my little heart to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues many many many many many times as a little girl. Being so emotional and wanting something so badly, with tears rolling down my face, I can remember pleading with God to fill me with the Holy Ghost. I began wondering why he just wouldn’t give it to me. What was wrong with me that God wouldn’t give me this gift he said he would give when I asked? I was doing what I was told…I repented, and yet God was withholding something so precious from me (salvation). An innocent little child becoming a beggar at the altar. Little did I know I was being handed an unnecessary burden I would carry for the next 40 years.

Church service after church service would go by, and a child here and there would get the Holy Ghost (or be refilled) – but not me. You know if you are telling a small child to ask nicely for a treat of some sort, but don’t actually give it to them, they’ll start questioning your character. Then you keep telling them to repetitively ask “the correct way” so they’ll eventually get what was promised them, then they’ll not keep asking with any sort of faith they’ll actually get it. How heartbreaking for any child to stand with hands outstretched and pleading eyes WAITING AND WAITING. I was walking away empty handed time again all the while knowing until I spoke in tongues I would go to hell if I died. I wouldn’t do this to my own precious child, and it breaks my heart imagining how God must feel watching his children being placed under the burdens of faulty doctrine. I loved and wanted God so much, but legalistic teachings began entrenching itself into my little mind.

FINALLY one service my Sunday school teacher started celebrating while praying for me stating I’d gotten the Holy Ghost. I was confused because I hadn’t heard any new language coming out of my mouth. Sure, I had stammering lips and tears, but there was no new language. I also didn’t feel any different. I remember her shaking her head yes, and saying “Yes, Alicia. That’s the Holy Ghost, Alicia.” Then she’d speak in tongues off and on again, but break off to encourage me in English. I later learned this Sunday School teacher was known for saying kids had spoken in tongues when they actually hadn’t.

From a 5-year-old little girl until 30 I attended the UPC church. I left the church around 30, and it hasn’t been until this year as a 45-year-old woman that I FINALLY figured out some things and have closure. To this day I truly don’t know if I ever really spoke in tongues. Instead I believe what I was experiencing was a wildly emotional response taught to me by my peers.

Growing up in the church and being a part of its functions were right up my alley. No one had to force me to go to church – I ABSOLUTELY LOVED MY CHURCH & CHURCH FAMILY! It didn’t matter what I had to do to be pleasing to God, I would do it without much thought or hesitation. Don’t cut your hair – OK. Don’t wear makeup – OK. Don’t wear pants – OK. Come to church three times a week and five days a week during revival – OK. Sleeves down to your elbows and skirts below the knee – OK. No worldly music, no cussing, no drinking, no smoking, no premarital sex – OK. Standards didn’t overwhelm me, and I did them because I thought this was what God wanted. My issue was elsewhere – SPEAKING IN TONGUES.

Being a part of a church that taught speaking in tongues as not only the initial evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, but it was also something that had to be repeated (should be daily), but also needed to be done again on cue if asked to ‘pray in the Spirit’ at any time during a church service. I COULDN’T DO IT. I would wonder what was wrong with me that I couldn’t speak out like ‘everybody else’. Questioning my salvation was regularly on my mind and in my heart. I cried – A LOT (understatement – I can’t adequately describe the amount of tears). I became very self-conscious in not only praying for myself, but praying for others. If I couldn’t speak in tongues properly – therefore not being saved properly – how then could I pray for anybody else to get the Holy Ghost? I would feel so relieved when the Pastor would come take my place while praying for somebody. My prayers were not as effective as his…

I begged God service after service to change me. Do anything he needed to do to me to allow me the ease of speaking in tongues to be absolutely sure of my salvation. I had no reassurance when I died I would go to Heaven, and was literally petrified of death.

I would ask various people I respected about why it takes some people longer to receive the Holy Ghost. I would never reveal I was asking for myself, but it was always for “another person I knew.” The consistent answer was there was something within that person that was wrong and stopping them from receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. So, something was wrong with me, yet I couldn’t figure out what it was. Church service after church service would go by, year after year would go by, and there I was still stuck begging God for just the basics of salvation.

There were infrequent times I thought possibly I spoke in tongues, but these situations were few, far between and very questionable. I had to be bawling my eyes out, extremely emotional with tears, stammering lips, and there’d be slight repetitive syllables softly rolling off my tongue. When this would happen I would then immediately start to pray for God to kill me. Let me die now! Die in my sleep, get in an accident on the way home, or just a death that wasn’t too painful. PLEASE LET ME DIE NOW SO I CAN GO TO HEAVEN. This is all I really wanted. I wasn’t too concerned with my future or what God wanted me to accomplish with a full life. I just wanted to go to Heaven so badly. I was a healthy teenager who loved God, yet there I was praying for death. Also when these situations would occur I didn’t feel any extra peace, happiness or reassurance. I still questioned myself.

I remember this one very well-known evangelist who came to our church to minister. Our church would be packed out when he’d show up, and I always looked forward to his arrival. At the altar call of one service he was praying over a teenager in our youth group. Because the evangelist had the microphone up to his face and the young man’s he was praying for, the whole church could hear the young man praying in tongues. His tongue sounded almost exactly like mine. The evangelist proceeded to tell the young man to grow up and gain some depth in God because his tongue was a baby tongue!

I WAS MORTIFIED and so thankful the evangelist hadn’t been praying for me and said that. So not only did I very rarely speak in tongues, but the tongue I did sometimes have was a baby tongue? This was so confusing to me. How did God give us a baby tongue that was supposed to gradually switch over into what? An adult tongue? Where was this mentioned in the Bible? In fact, most of the tongues I did hear going on in church didn’t sound like languages at all. Speaking in tongues wasn’t supposed to be about ‘learning to do it’ like a language we learn to speak. It was supposed to be something the Holy Ghost accomplished within us, right? But what did I know? The people I looked up to and loved said this is the way it was, so this is the way it was.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 2.