Category: speaking in tongues | Page 2

The UnBoxing Project: Ashley’s story

Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Eleanor Skelton’s blog. It was originally published on March 9, 2015 as part of a series.

Continued from Defecting from a cult.

Editorial Note: Although Ashley is a survivor of a Christian fundamentalist cult, unfortunately she became abusive herself. She has been reported to several law enforcement agencies for human trafficking others from 2017-2019. She is the abusive partner mentioned in this post from 2022.

I keep Ashley’s story on the blog as a reminder that those who do not heal from their own trauma can and often do end up harming others. If you see online fundraisers for Ashley or her current partners, please know that anything you donate may enable her to continue to cause harm, and we would caution anyone against donating to her. If you know where she is, please report her to the authorities since she has been avoiding speaking to investigators for several years.

Content Note: spiritual abuse, self-harm, victim-blaming

Ashley grew up attending the First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs, now known as Heritage Pentecostal Church. This is Ashley’s story, told in her own words.

Do you know what it’s like when
You’re scared to see yourself?
Do you know what it’s like when
You wish it were someone else
Who didn’t need your help to get by?
Do you know what it’s like
To wanna surrender?
I don’t wanna feel like this tomorrow
I don’t wanna live like this today
Make me feel better, I wanna feel better
Stay with me here now and never surrender
Never surrender. – Surrender, Skillet

“Mama! Mama! Look at the butterfly!” I squealed in delight at the wonder perched on my shoulder.

“Don’t move, Lovey! It’ll fly away.”

I stood as still as possible as my mom snapped a picture of this beautiful creature, and watched as it flew away. I remember thinking as I watched the butterfly float into a beautiful, summer day, how amazing it would be to be able to just whisk yourself away whenever you chose.

I had no idea how much I would pine for that fantasy to become a reality.

I always remember my parents being there, no matter what the occasion was. Pajama day at school, grown-up day, job day, doctor’s appointments, they were always present. I can’t remember an important event they were not there for.

I went to them with everything, no matter how strange, and they were always brutally honest with me. I liked it that way. Being a straightforward person, I needed that to grow. Things were always so comfortable — and then 2001 came and everything changed. Drastically.

My mom had gotten involved with a church when she was 15, and the experience had always stayed with her. She had visited a Pentecostal holiness church and had received what they call the Holy Ghost, which to them is the basis of salvation. You cannot attain Heaven without it, and once you have received it, even if you walk away from God, you are marked and you will be a target for Satan.

My dad, on the other hand, is Irish/German and was raised Catholic. He was actually an altar boy growing up and wanted to become a priest. However, he grew out of that sometime in high school.

While living in Louisiana, my mom met a girl named Billie Jo, and they went to a Pentecostal church together. My mom converted all the way this time (lost the pants, threw away the jewelry, chucked the TV and music) and as soon as my dad joined, we essentially became Amish with microwaves.

Ashley (center) at a church outreach and evangelism event called Youth with Truth at Acacia Park in downtown Colorado Springs on June 29, 2013. | Photo: First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs

But even then, my parents broke me in slowly.

As an only child, I had practically every Disney movie known to man, and they allowed me to hand over my Disney movies in exchange for Veggie Tales. From there, it was my Veggie Tales traded in for either a trampoline or a puppy. My daddy bought me both.

They introduced me into that world slowly, and with ease. I appreciated that, even then. I knew they could have completely ripped everything away from me and made the transition harder than it already was. But they didn’t.

I never thanked them for that. I guess it kind of got buried under everything other emotion that surfaced after.

At first, things weren’t so bad. The family environment was great. Having no family in Colorado, the church appeared to be exactly what we needed. I started going to the church school which consisted of about 50 kids. I made friends quickly, and it seemed so easy at first. We were accepted as new converts and everything was cool.

My parents also made friends, and were treated like family by the pastor. They were like their kids.

I believe this is what started the depth of my parents’ relationship with the ministry. Around 2006, the pastor decided he wanted to evangelize and ended up electing a man from Mississippi to pastor the church.

I’ve never seen a man so hell bent on changing people for the worst.

Brother and Sister Burgess at Ashley’s high school graduation. | Photo: Ashley Kavanaugh

To my parents, this couple took the place of God. I have literally heard my dad say that if John Burgess asked him to stand on his head for 6 hours a day, in the middle of Interstate 25, that he would do it without hesitation.

They believe that he is the voice of God, that even if he is wrong, and they sin because of his advice, that God would honor their obedience and look past their own wrongdoing.

The church services are filled with hype and the sermons are mostly guilt, especially directed at young people. They warn us of the wrath of God if we choose to walk away and almost every service we are reminded of the horrors that have happened to backsliders all through Pentecostal history, including those from our own youth group.

One of the stories of backsliders was one of my close friends Sharonda.

She grew up with me, my mom babysat her and her older sister, and I looked up to this girl. She was my idol for a long time. She was my piano inspiration, she was cool, and she loved people.

I’ve never met a heart as big as Sharonda’s.

She was shot and killed late summer 2012. The case was never solved, and the Burgesses made not only her death, but also her funeral, an omen and message to all of us, that we should not run from God, for he is a jealous God, and his vengeance is strong.

She is seldom mentioned among the young people. It just hurts too much.

Brother John Burgess leading prayer during church outreach event called Youth With Truth at Acacia Park in downtown Colorado Springs on June 29, 2013. | Photo: First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs

The Burgesses continued to push their way into the minds of the church, and more and more young people have been driven away from God.

Most of the “backsliders” that I know don’t even believe in a benevolent God anymore.

This started to become my opinion very young. I couldn’t see how any of this made sense. I thought the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was just and honorable? Not malicious and manipulative.

After my parents began to blindly follow the pastor, I started to lose control. I shut off all emotions because I just couldn’t handle them anymore. I began to get more and more reclusive, and eventually began to blame myself for the guilt and pain that my parents were dealing with due to the controlling ways of the church.

I didn’t know how to get help, and I began to fall into a deeper depression. I began to self-harm. This was done in so many ways, I can’t even begin to explain it all. Eventually, the self-harm wasn’t enough. I attempted suicide six times, starting at the age of 11.

I tried everything. Nothing worked.

My mom caught me cutting once and literally dragged me in to Shanna Burgess (the pastor’s wife), who promptly told me as I lay on the floor, bleeding, that it was all in my head, and I needed to stop being so angry at God.

She told me I was the one to blame.

After coming to her weeks before with my heart wide open and breaking in pieces, I explained one reason why I felt so alone. I was sexually assaulted when I was 6 years old and had no way to express my feelings. She, of course, immediately took this information to my mother, who denied it.

My parents have never believed me. Sister Burgess told me I needed to stop feeling sorry for myself because come on, it never happened!

I hated them before but after this? I could never forgive them.

Brother and Sister Burgess had and still have a hold on my parents like nothing I’ve ever seen.

(Left to right) Brother John Burgess, Ashley Kavanaugh, and Kevin Kavanaugh at Heritage Christian Academy’s 2012 high school graduation. Heritage Christian Academy is a private, unaccredited school operated by the First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs. | Photo: Ashley Kavanaugh

When I turned 18, things started to look up. I was finally allowed to have a phone because I had turned 18 (pastor’s rules for youth), I was finally granted rights to a car (that I bought, of course), and everything was going good.

I had been in good graces with the Burgesses and my family. I was following the rules to perfection.

And then after a falling out with my best friend at the time, I started to become close friends with a girl named Racquel. We began to grow closer and closer as the months went on, and before you knew it, we were opening up to each other. I told her things I had never told anyone ever.

Eventually, our concerns about the church and their doctrines, the Burgesses and all sorts of other questions came to the forefront of our conversations and we began to discuss them.

We grew even closer after learning about some of the abuse that the other one had endured.

We got caught discussing these topics, and we were separated and forbidden to speak to one another. This happened four times.

Each time we grew closer and closer and eventually, we started to go to extreme lengths to see each other. My parents and the Burgesses resorted to lying to both of us, trying to force us to hate each other.

After another six months of not speaking, we once again rebelled and talked about what had happened. We realized they had lied to both of us, obtaining information by hacking email and bank accounts. My parents forced me to stop attending my college classes because Racquel might try to visit me there.

We communicated to each other through Eleanor for about three weeks, and then we started to sneak out again.

We had contemplated running away many times before, but something was different this time.

When two adults aren’t allowed to talk because they get caught listening to One Direction, there’s some serious malfunction going on. It had reached an all-time idiocy and we had enough.

We both left home, and the night I did that was the hardest decision of my life.

Three days later, my dad was going to throw my stuff on the sidewalk. My mom, who was out of town at the time, convinced him to let me come pack my stuff, so he left for a few hours.

Racquel and Eleanor went with me. The first thing I noticed when I came in was that all my pictures were taken off the walls and lay facing down. Some sat in piles on the floor. I almost lost it then.

I just remember feeling like my parents died, and I was cleaning out their house.

A little later, Cynthia Jeub and another friend also came over. I’ll never forget the look on Cynthia’s face when I saw her. I walked outside to greet them, and she just looked so disturbed. But there was also pride in her eyes.

She hugged me for a good ten minutes. I’ve never expressed how much that hug meant to me.

They helped me pack up, and I decided last minute to check my mom’s car. I went to look for any remaining items, and when I opened the door, I saw that the inside of the car was destroyed.

I can only assume my dad went crazy and trashed the car. It was really scary.

Everyone was panicking because we didn’t know when he was coming back, and he had guns, so people were starting to freak out. We left not long after.

It didn’t really hit me until then, how drastic the change was going to be.

Since then, I have gone through a lot. I’ve put myself through an abusive relationship, made myself be something I wasn’t, lost connection with my family for months at a time because of “religious differences,” moved around a lot, found out I was adopted by my dad, been through a ton of counseling, self-harmed, ran from my home state, even shut my humanity off a few times.

But one thing I can say I haven’t, nor will I ever do, is forget who I am and where I came from.

I can’t express how hard it has been. The sleepless nights, the thousands of times I’ve cried myself to sleep, and woke up screaming. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

But you know what? I don’t regret it. I can’t. I’ve invested too much into this decision to fault it.

To those of you trying to escape, it’s not impossible. It’s not easy, but I promise its worth it.

We have helped more people come out since my decision to leave, and the feeling is so liberating, knowing you are a voice and a model for them.

To those of you who have siblings that are still in captivity, don’t give up hope. They will make it. YOU are their light, no matter how dark you feel sometimes. Because sometimes the darkest shadows have been cast by the brightest lights.

And no matter what bad choices you make long the way, I’ve found that I don’t have to be ashamed of them. Because they are finally my decisions.

So while wading through your red river of screams just as we have, remember you do not fight alone. You can make it.

And never surrender…. the battle will be worth it, and we will win the war.
I don’t wanna feel like this tomorrow
I don’t wanna live like this today
Make me feel better, I wanna feel better
Stay with me here now and never surrender
Never surrender

Ashley Kavanaugh attended public school during her elementary school years, but her parents later chose to homeschool her online when they joined the First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs. She finished her senior year of high school at Heritage Christian Academy, the private school operated by that church. Her adopted father is an attorney, but she was the first person on her mother’s side of the family to finish high school and attend college. She is interested in studying psychology, forensics, and criminal justice.

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The UnBoxing Project: Racquel’s story

Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Eleanor Skelton’s blog. It was originally published on March 7, 2015 as part of a series.

Continued from Why did you call it the UnBoxing Project?

Content Note: religious manipulation, forced starvation

*Eleanor and Racquel hiking the Incline near Colorado Springs in fall 2013. | Photo: Eleanor Skelton*

Racquel grew up attending the First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs, now known as Heritage Pentecostal Church. This is Racquel’s story, in her own words.

Somehow I never imagined that the inner peace and joy I felt as a 5-year-old girl after being filled with the Holy Ghost would later disgust and scare me.

I am writing this because I believe my voice should be heard. I hope that by telling my story it will help my healing and others with similar stories as well as prevent more stories like mine from happening.

The music was loud, and the atmosphere was pulsing with energy.

I wanted to show how much I loved God, so I went up to the front of the sanctuary and danced with all my might, letting my tears flow. I had been taught that I should dance before the Lord and not let anyone’s opinion stop me.

Often, I was the first one or the only one at the front of the church.

This was good. It meant I was a leader, and that I was fighting spiritual warfare. It would also show my pastor, who was God’s voice in my life, how my walk with God was and what a good apostolic young person I was.

I remember night after night where this was my mindset.

*Racquel (far left, wearing an orange dress) speaks in tongues on the front row during Heritage Youth Conference, fall 2011. | Photo: First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs*

I was isolated from other members of the youth group because I would refuse to do things that the pastor had commanded us not to, like riding in a car with a guy unless it was approved or unless a married approved chaperone was in the car.

However, there were also the many, many times where I sat or knelt at the altar, weeping and feeling the guilt of my many sins when I simply failed to uphold the standards because I had listened to unchristian music, watched a TV show, or could not stick to a daily prayer life.

For years, I went through a cycle of getting in trouble with my best friend, Ashley, for questioning the pastoral authority and why we held to some of our standards, sometimes completely disregarding the rules, and then being told that my best friend and I should not talk or hang out because our personalities did not complement each other.

Meanwhile, I stood by as she was abused in so many ways by both the pastoral authority and her parents. The only thing I could do was be there for her.

In January 2013, my best friend and I had come to the conclusion that we did not and could not agree with the church. However, we were discovered yet again and ripped apart.

This time, the pastor lied to both of us, trying to turn us against each other by saying that the other one had ratted us out.

At the direction and guidance of the pastor, Ashley’s parents were punishing her for not losing weight because it was said that God could not use her unless she lost the weight. Because of her inability to meet their demands, she had begun starving herself.

I texted her one night in compassion and frustration that she should “F*** (written politely as $@##) what they think” to drive home to Ashley that starving herself was not the answer, and that her parents and pastor were wrong.

During one of the long sessions in the pastor’s office after getting caught, I discovered the pastor had hacked into my best friend’s phone and found my text.

I was questioned about my lack of respect for authority.

My hands were tied as I seethed in anger not able to tell the pastor the context of the text, lest the abuse she suffered would increase, because the pastor was part the abuse.

Back then, Ashley was too scared of losing her parents and being kicked out to do anything other than play along with them. When she was 19 years old, her parents and the pastor stripped every form of communication, transportation and even her ability to go to college from her.

She was not even allowed to be alone in her own home at any time.

Racquel (far right) singing in the choir. Apostolic churches consider leading worship to be a privilege called being “on the platform.” Anyone who questions authority or church beliefs may be removed from the platform as form of social shaming. | *Photo: First United Pentecostal Church of Colorado Springs*

In March, the deception worked, and the pressure finally broke me to the point that I gave in and did exactly as the church and the pastor wanted me to do. I felt helpless and that the reason for these crazy feelings must be because I was not submitted to them.

I continued to not talk to my best friend and tried to force myself into the mold they had created for me with my approved Christian friends and guilt-ridden prayer life.

I still had all of the same questions.

Why must a man my pastor dictate to me what God wants and God not talk to me directly? Why must I not be allowed to talk to my best friend who was still the most important person in my life?

How could so many injustices and abuse be what a loving god wanted?

So when my little sister decided to leave suddenly and move in with a guy I had never met, and I had no idea were she was or if she was safe, when my approved friends failed, I reached out to the one person I knew who would be there: Ashley.

Within two weeks of resuming secret communication, we had both discussed in detail what we saw wrong with the church, and had stated that no matter what we were going to keep communicating, even if it had to be hidden.

10553500_802766489755823_1022764128682957679_n — Ashley, Eleanor and Racquel in August 2013 | Photo: Eleanor Skelton

Almost immediately, she started to date a coworker.

On December 15, 2013, her dad followed her to her boyfriend’s house, and that night he kicked her out.

I received a text that said: “They know everything can you come and get me.” I immediately drove to her house and picked her up.

After that, we stayed in Eleanor’s apartment. She had also recently escaped an abusive fundamentalist home.

There has been a lot of healing and learning since then and now. Learning to live outside of the box has not been easy, nor do I think it ever will.

I now have the wonderful freedom of choice, and with that comes what I would describe as both the beauty of a rainbow and the burden of the rain cloud.

Making these choices is the scariest and most exhilarating thing that I have ever done. I have learned and accepted more of who I am.

I can only hope that healing will come in time, and the scars will become less painful.

Racquel graduated with a bachelor’s in psychology from the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs in May 2014. She struggled with undereducation from inadequate homeschooling and Christian private education in her church throughout her time in college. Racquel hopes to pursue a graduate degree in counseling and mental health, and her current job involves assisting troubled teens.

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 6

The following is part six of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 & Part 5.

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Since we know belief alone saves us – what about baptism? Baptism is a declaration of spiritual warfare in the unseen realm. Believing in Jesus saves us – baptism is a loyalty oath! It declares whose side you are on in a spiritual war. Believe on Jesus – be baptized. It’s a wonderful first step of a heart changed by the Spirit – how beautiful! Michael Heiser covers this very well in a variety of his teachings from books, podcasts, and You Tube videos. Some would deny this, but let me ask this. If baptism is likened unto circumcision, how did circumcision save anybody? If you feel it did save, than it must have only saved men. Too bad so sad for women.

I’d always assumed my fear of God and hell came from the inability to speak in tongues. However, now I know so many who do speak in tongues are fear-filled too. This is because legalism and doctrinal error have stolen the peace of God. I fully believe had I been given the Gift of Tongues there would still have been fear and questions needing to be addressed as I tried to keep earning my salvation as taught by the church.

Another thing that really makes me doubt a variety of tongues spoken in our churches today is the story of a pastor’s wife I know who said speaking in tongues came so easily to her that she could be thinking about other things like her grocery list while babbling in tongues. What is the use? What mindless prayer…is this really praying in the Spirit? No.

A friend I went to Bible College with (who’s since walked away from God and the UPC church) told me he still speaks in tongues when he gets emotional. Once he was at a non-Christian concert and raised his hands at an emotional part in a song, and busted out in tongues! He said this can also happen at various parties thrown at home, and it amuses his guests. I’m not sharing this story to put him down in the least, but I’m sharing this because tongues is not all it’s cracked up to be, especially when they are used in a way that’s not scriptural. So the big question then becomes how much of the tongue talking going on in our services is really scriptural? I’ve come to think a majority of it is just an emotional response.

Another friend told me she knows a UPC pastor who has never spoken in tongues, and he doesn’t believe tongues are necessary to show the infilling of the Holy Ghost! I pray more UPC’ers come to this conclusion. [Note from Lois: Everyone who applies for license with the UPCI is asked if they believe that speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial
sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and if they have received this experience. The application asks where and when it happened and these questions are asked for each level of licensing.]

Someone recently told me they didn’t know anyone who hadn’t spoken in tongues (until my story came out). I just want to point out that unless someone trusts enough to share they haven’t spoken in tongues, then no one will know they haven’t spoken in tongues. The individual (me in this case) has to be able to trust in another not to shame them. And this person who said this to me has known me my whole life pretty much. Now many have come to me privately stating they feel like I’m telling their story as I’ve shared my own. We are not just one or two scattered here and there, but we could fill churches. We never know the pain someone is experiencing growing up sitting on the same pews right beside us.

My mother recently went to my previous pastor, and let him know I hadn’t really ever spoken in tongues. Do you want to know what he said? I will tell you… “Five minutes with me, and she’ll be speaking in other tongues.” What nonsense is this? Does he bring the Spirit? No. As if he hadn’t already prayed for me a gazillion times in my life! It didn’t work then, why would he think it’d work now? The Spirit determines the gifts each believer is to receive – not a pastor or anybody else.

Salvation has always been by belief in both the Old and New Testaments. Covenants change, but not the way of salvation. This is why the thief on the cross was able to be saved – because he believed in Jesus. There are so many denominational legalistic teachings that jump through hoops to try and justify situations like this, but it all comes down to belief. So simple. Such a blessing. So much peace in Jesus when we can rest in his assurance. And yes, people can be saved on their deathbeds by repenting and believing in Jesus (think thief on the cross).

As a result of where I am now, I feel such a kindred spirit with other believers. They are my brothers and sisters – not people I need to try to convert to a denomination. Understanding my place in Christ has made me want to share what I’ve learned. Everyone who loves Jesus and wants to live for him deserves to understand what God really wants for us and from us – belief and devotion to him only.

God is not a mean Father standing over us just waiting to string us up by our toes to drop us into hellfire for eternity if we mess up, don’t pray enough, wear pants, cut our hair, or something else a denomination has decided is a sin.

Here are some things I’ve relearned about our Heavenly Father…

1. He doesn’t require tongues as an admittance ticket into Heaven. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
2. The Bible doesn’t promote spanking of children as long as you pray before and after the act. “Sparing the rod” is not about spanking. When you learn the rod and staff are for the comforting and training of his sheep (not hitting his sheep) you realize HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
a. I get it…raising children is hard and frustrating sometimes, especially when we’re unsure on how to bring about the desired behavior. I recommend Positive Parenting Solutions to help with a variety of issues. Their tips are tremendous for both parent and child.
3. We are not in an abusive relationship with God. He does not require we serve him OR ELSE he will torture us for eternity in hell. God wants to live with those who love him for eternity in Heaven. Those who do not want him will die a second death in hell and be dead for eternity (not alive and being tortured for all the rest of time). HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.

4. Tithes are not a requirement for Christians. God doesn’t require people give give give monetarily until they’ve given to such an extent that they have had to neglect their very own real needs to support the church. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE. See this post.

Would we ever think it’s a beautiful and sweet behavior to see a child crying and begging for a gift? “I’ll try hard to be good, mom & dad, I promise. May I pleeeeeease have my gift?” Tears pouring down face… “Pleeeeeease. I love you so much. I will change, I will do what you asked me to do. PLEEEEEASE!” Hands in the air pleading for this gift, and sobs wracking body. “This time may I have it?” Now put this on repeat a hundred times over. Yet, here we are expecting not only ourselves, but also our children, to approach our loving God like this for salvation. God must be so heartbroken! I would feel ashamed of myself if this was how I required my child to act like towards me.

Matthew 18:1-8 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who BELIEVE in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”

<3 CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. <3

I fully recognize and understand how scary and unsettling it can be to realize something we have been taught as truth may not actually be truth. There are a lot of emotions that go along with this revelation. However, how often do we hear that when God is trying to do a work in us it can be painful at times like the pressure it takes to make diamonds? We are a work in progress. He is the potter, and we are the clay.

*Jesus is the narrow gate into Heaven – not a denomination and their rules.

*What does ‘backslidden’ really mean? Teaser alert – it is not leaving your denomination! See this article.

*I highly HIGHLY recommend listening to Deanna Jo’s YouTube channel Responsible Faith. She’s an ex UPC’er who reteaches a lot of scripture that was used to bind the saints into imaging a denomination, and shows what scripture is really trying to say. Image Jesus – not a denomination.

*I recommend the book Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices by Frank Viola and George Barna. This book delves into the history of our church practices, and what God really wants for his people. God wants a much more individualistic functioning of each of his children. Each and every member has an important role, and each one is just as important as the next. Our current church style makes the preacher have a really big mouth, and saints on the pews really big ears. This is not what God intended for the preacher or church body.

*This is a two-part teaching on the Grace of God. You’ll laugh, maybe cry, but in the end understand more about our wonderful Jesus.

*Mike Winger, The Beat by Allen Parr, Keeping it in Context by Aurelio Lessey have a lot of excellent teachings on a variety of topics on You Tube.

*A former Pentecostal pastor’s words on how the United Pentecostal Church misrepresents the Gospel may be found here.

If anyone would like to contact me with sincere questions, please feel free to email me at alicia.dwivedi@gmail.com. If anyone would like to contact me to berate or threaten me with hell – it won’t work. Fear and hell no longer have a hold on me.

I hope and pray my testimony of fear to faith will help people come to a better understanding of the Gospel and salvation. God Bless!

Alicia Sounier Dwivedi – April 27, 2023

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 5

The following is part five of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 & Part 4.

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I read through the whole book of Acts, and if I didn’t miss anything then there are only three cases where speaking in tongues (once again known languages) were present.

Acts is an amazing book which introduces us to the power of the Spirit of God. Jesus came into the world quietly, but the Spirit would come with an unimaginable entrance!

1. Acts 2 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Jews.
a. The disciples and some others were all in one place, and when the Spirit came, they spoke in other languages that were understood by those around them. What was being shared through tongues? “The wonders of God!” vs 11. Take notice that the Bible never says when the Spirit came that salvation came.
b. Vs 18 – God will pour out his Spirit, and people will prophecy. What? Wait a minute – when God pours out his Spirit aren’t people supposed to talk in tongues to show proof they’ve received it? Let’s continue…
c. Vs 21 – Everyone who CALLS on the name of the Lord will be saved. Hmm…doesn’t say everyone who speaks in tongues will be saved.
d. Vs 37 – The people who heard Paul’s message were cut to the heart, and asked what they should do.
e. Vs 38 – Repent & be baptized every one of you, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you, your children, and to all who are afar off.
f. Vs 41 – THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE VERSES! “Those who ACCEPTED his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day. The Bible NEVER says the 3,000 spoke in tongues. Those in the upper room spoke in tongues declaring the wonders of God. The 3,000 accepted the message they heard!!! AGH!!! How many times has it been preached the 3,000 spoke in tongues?! Praise God, I am so happy!

2. Acts 10 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Gentiles. This is you and me, folks. YAY!
a. Vs 43 – All the prophets testify about him that everyone who BELIEVES in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
b. Vs 46 – The Spirit is poured out on Cornelius and his household. They heard them speaking in tongues (known languages – not babble), and they were praising God.
c. Vs 11:15 – Another interesting thing to note about this situation is Paul states the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles just as it had them at the “BEGINNING.” Beginning of what? Beginning of Acts 2. If the Holy Ghost fell on every first-time believer the same way, with evidence of speaking in tongues, then why did Peter reference the beginning? Why did he not reference tongues as it happened yesterday, the day before, last week, or to every believer every time? Because it didn’t happen this way every time…

3. Acts 19 Paul found disciples, prayed with them, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit with tongues and prophesied. The Gifts of the Spirit are clearly working here. Originally this group of disciples hadn’t even heard of any Spirit coming as they were still believing unto John’s teaching and baptism, which was to believe in the one coming after John, that is, in Jesus. This instance was more about proving the working of the Spirit, and not salvation.
a. “It was critical for Paul to understand these new disciples faith in Christ was genuine. Tongues here served as evidence of that. Had Paul not recognized that the Ephesian disciples were speaking in real, human languages unknown to them, there would be no way for Paul to know that their conversion was genuine. In other words, had they only been speaking unintelligibly, Paul would have been unable to confirm that their conversion was real. One must conclude that the Ephesian disciples also spoke in foreign, but intelligible human languages as well, in which case interpretation would also be unnecessary.” Quote from Jason Young.

Should it be said if one doesn’t experience the infilling of the Holy Ghost EXACTLY like they did in these three instances then we really haven’t been filled or filled ‘properly’? Because if this is the case then I think most of us haven’t experienced the infilling EXACTLY as described in these cases, and maybe each of us should start questioning our salvation UNTIL EACH OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN. Sounds pitiful and fruitless, doesn’t it? Here’s what we’d be missing – a sound as of a rushing mighty wind, cloven tongues like as of fire that sat on each of them, prophecy and a shaken place (Acts 4:31). How many have experienced all of these things exactly like this?

*Here are the rest of the locations in Acts where people were saved with no mention of tongues; Acts 4:4, 4:31, 5:14, 8:17, 8:39, 9:18, 11:15, 16:14, 16:25-34, 17:2-4, 17:33, 18:8.

*All BELIEVERS (not tongue-talkers) are baptized with one Spirit – I Cor 12:13, but not all speak in tongues – I Cor 12:30.

*What about Isaiah 28:11 – For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. It’s actually a judgement and not a good thing happening in this passage of scripture. The people were stubborn and wouldn’t listen to God. Learn more in this video.

SALVATION IS BELIEF IN THE GOSPEL – life, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

I have come to believe salvation is so profoundly simple, and it’s a relief to my soul that there is not one thing I can contribute or need to contribute to earn my salvation. Jesus did it all for me and for you!

Think about it…God has a free gift (salvation) for every person who asks for it. However, if you cannot speak in tongues as taught by the Pentecostal Church than you cannot receive salvation. If you are some of the ‘lucky’ ones who do speak in tongues, then you have to keep performing this act to retain your salvation. There are countless people who walk into Pentecostal church services that cannot speak in tongues, who are taught the problem lies with them, but I’ve come to say it’s not the people who are the problem – it’s the United Pentecostal Church’s teaching on what tongues is actually for that is the problem.

Once again these scriptures are not all encompassing, but I am pointing out just a few.

*John 1:12 Yet, to all who did received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God.

*John 3:15 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

*John 5:24 Whoever hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

*John 6:47 I tell you, the one who BELIEVES has eternal life.

*Romans 10:8-11 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,’ that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord,” and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you BELIEVE and are justified, and it with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who BELIEVES in him will never be put to shame.”

*Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of his glory.

*Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not of works, so that no one can boast.

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE – IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DO IN AND OF OURSELVES. We don’t have to perform for anybody.

So how do we know if someone has truly repented and believed unto salvation? Easy…Fruit of the Spirit begins to develop. It’s a heart change. Ez 36:26

“The apostle Paul used Abraham as an example of believing loyalty. Rom 4:1-12. Abraham BELIEVED and was accepted by God BEFORE he obeyed any rules. The rules were about showing he believed. They did not replace belief. Belief and loyalty are two distinct things. Related but not interchangeable. The same is true of salvation and discipleship.” (Michael Heiser’s book – What Does God Want?)

“David was a moral mess, but he never showed disloyalty or lack of love for God. He broke a number of God’s moral laws, but he repented and never worshiped another God.” (Michael Heiser’s book What Does God Want?) If we think that God doesn’t approve of someone because of a hemline, sleeve-length, men growing beards, or anything else along these lines, then there is a lot more Bible reading and soul-searching to be done. God forgive us for being so short-sighted. David was said to be a man after God’s own heart, but in our day and age I think very few of us would say this of a man who was a murderer, adulterer and liar.

There are three divine rebellions in the Bible (I know – we’re taught about only 1). Portions of Michael Heiser’s book, What Does God Want, is highly quoted with random thoughts of my own thrown in. I suggest watching his documentary listed below, and then read or listen to another of his books called The Unseen Realm.

“The 3rd rebellion begins at the Tower of Babel when God confuses the languages due to the people building a tower to their own glory. Gen 11:1-9. The Most High gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind…he fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the Sons of God (divine beings). But the Lord’s portion is his allotted heritage. Deut 32:8-9. Even worse God divorced himself from humanity. Up until this point God had been dealing with mankind as a collective whole, but this changed at Babel. Now human beings would be segregated by language and geography.”

“We aren’t told how long it took, but eventually the Sons of God (divine beings) assigned over humanity became so corrupt God had to judge them too. He will one day take away their immortality and take back the nations. Psa 82:6-8. God’s portion was Israel beginning with Abraham. God’s design has always been to preserve people unto himself, and he gave his people laws to show they wanted to be in his family – loyalty to him alone – not some other god. God wants a human family even when he’s unwanted. His love defies logic.”

“Jesus was the promised offspring who would eventually release people in the divorced nations from other gods so they could rejoin God’s family. Gal 3:16-18, 26-29. The Spirit’s arrival wasn’t just for us, but it launched an infiltration campaign against the sons of God to whom God assigned to the nations he divorced (Deut 32:8) – the supernatural beings who defected from serving God and became corrupt, abusing the people under their domination (Psa 82).”

“When the Holy Spirit came he enabled the followers of Jesus to speak in all sorts of languages, and they told his story (the Gospel) to Jews from all over the world. They were PREACHED TO IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. Three thousand people called upon the name of the Lord for forgiveness of sins and were saved. Then they went home to spread the Gospel.” (Not sit on pews for years of their lives unable to miss a church service for fear of being tempted by the Evil One. Alicia’s words – not Michael Heiser’s.) “These 3,000 became personal evangelists to their friends and family who lived in hostile territory held by other gods.”

Speaking in tongues bridged the gap between peoples. The languages were confused at Babel, and now the Spirit would bridge that gap to bring all the peoples of the nations back to God! Tongues isn’t for us to somehow be more powerful, but it’s given to spread the Gospel. If everyone in a service can all speak the same language than why would tongues be needed? If there’s no one to interpret – keep silent in the church. Very simple!

“Paul knew the forsaken nations would one day worship the true God (Psa 117:1). Spiritual warfare was launched when the Spirit came. Not a moment goes by that God stops pursuing the children he loves and wants. His unseen hand is everywhere, in every circumstance, influencing and empowering his children to grow his family. Likewise the powers of darkness have been dethroned, but they haven’t surrendered. They resist, fighting a losing battle. This our ultimate destiny – becoming a permanent, legitimate member of God’s family. It’s what God has wanted from the very beginning.”

“Those who overcome, enduring in their faith in Jesus, will received authority over the nations (Rev 2:26), and will one day judge angels (I Cor 6:3). Who rule the nations now? The fallen sons of God allotted to nations at the Tower of Babel.”

There’s so much more happening than we’ve been taught, and God is bigger than denominational disputes (which God never wanted his family to be split like this).

To me I now see denominations like this; imagine a huge cruise ship coasting along in the ocean with all of its little life-boats securely attached to the sides. In the lifeboats are the individual denominations yelling and waving their oars at each other saying they only have full truth and revelation. All the while God is carrying everybody who has obeyed the Gospel on his huge cruise ship including the individual lifeboats with the feuding denominations. Watching his children fight and get caught up in Pharisaical issues must grieve him terribly. Instead of being a whole body of Christ, there are divisions. Instead of encouraging each other, saints are trying to convert saints. Instead of making the way to Jesus plain, confusion is sewn instead, which causes many to fall by the wayside. I could have been one of these, but God…

I remember hearing a real story of my previous pastor’s mom speaking out in tongues one service. Unbeknownst to her there was a man of Palestinian descent sitting in the pew who understood every word she was saying IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. He confronted her and thought she knew his language and was trying to convict him personally. This amazes me! To my knowledge that man did not believe on Jesus that day, but the beautiful thing is a seed was planted. He could be walking around saved today, and spreading the Gospel because of the message he heard in his own language.

The church service I was in where God spoke to me personally about being with him for eternity was amazing! You know what would have made it not amazing? If there had been no one there to interpret the tongues spoken. The lady who had spoken in tongues would have been speaking mysteries because no one could understand her except God. It would have done no one in the church any good whatsoever – a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 6.

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 4

The following is part four of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3.

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I will now begin the process of sharing to the best of my ability my journey to REALLY understanding my place in the kingdom of God. However, I don’t want anyone to take my word at face value – study it out. Listen to a variety of teachers on confusing subjects. Take your time, and know God will bless those who seek him. Please also understand, despite what you were taught about having to believe everything a denomination teaches you word for word without any variance or personal opinion, that this is not Biblical and NOT what God designed for his people, the church. I’m not suggesting people need to leave their denominations either. Just be aware when you align yourself with some denominations you oftentimes have to agree to their rules and regulations to be considered “right with God”.

One thing I’ve learned over time is instead of being imagers of Christ we have instead become imagers of denominations.
With some denominations your whole value as a Christian will be based on what you “look” like.
It doesn’t matter what gifts you’ve been given by the Holy Spirit, and it doesn’t matter what important role you have in the body of Christ. You will not be put into any position of ministry because you have not imaged the denomination properly. However, you best still sit in the pew and pay your tithes and give offerings – your money will gladly be used.
Once you have either been guilt-tripped into imaging the denomination again, you will then be considered “spiritual enough” to be in ministry, or you will walk away from the denomination knowing your place is no longer there.

Instead of being shaped into the image of Christ through the development of the Fruit of the Spirit, if we let ourselves we’ll be conformed to religions of this world.
Instead of teaching folks to listen to the voice of God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict where needed, the denomination has decided everything for its saints from the top down producing carbon copies of itself.
Seems a lot like idolatry to me…a denomination trying to mold people into its own image.

I was introduced to a Facebook page called SpiritualAbuse.Org when a certain man who’d been a part of my previous church had been charged with multiple cases of molestation was listed there. Originally I thought this page was primarily about molestation by spiritual leaders, but soon realized it was MUCH MORE THAN THIS. This page was FILLED with help for people who had been spiritually abused in any variety of manner. It also included a ton of information on every subject common to the UPC where pros and cons are clearly stated. You can read/listen to various subjects, and then make up your own mind on where you stand. You see, at this point I hadn’t realized spiritual abuse included me somehow.

Now I know the teaching about tongues being necessary for salvation is so hugely erroneous and is a heretical teaching. An alternate salvation was taught to me. Had this false teaching not been pushed on me from the time I was a little child, I don’t know where I would be in Christ right now. The thought of living for the Lord without all of the guilt and shame I carried for all of these years seems nothing short of idyllic. I can barely grasp the concept.

So why do I mention heresy? It’s so much more than just an error in interpretation or an alternate opinion over a trivial matter. “Heresy is sinful because the heretic commits idolatry by making his own beliefs the object of his desire instead of God who is the truth.” The UPC has made an experience determine how they interpret scripture instead of interpreting scripture correctly, and then defining their lives around that interpretation. Don’t believe me? Read I Corinthians 14, and see if church services function like the Bible says they should function. To be fair, I don’t think many churches do.

In no way am I stating in any way, shape or form those who teach tongues for salvation are malicious or somehow have ulterior motives. They’ve been taught this by their peers, and their peers by their peers. The cycle continues. I was once a part of this cycle for 25 years. I wasn’t mean, but I did think I was right. However, I’m thankful that understanding and peace have finally come to me after all of this time, and I pray my testimony reaches many others.

Another thing I’ve come to realize is so many feel like a denomination has saved them with the help of God, instead of recognizing God has saved them through people who have segregated themselves into a denomination. So they become afraid to leave that particular church or denomination. They can’t venture out anywhere else or their salvation will be in jeopardy.

So how did I come to this conclusion that receiving the Holy Spirit didn’t need to be accompanied with speaking in tongues? Well, I can tell you it wasn’t because I wanted to jump to a conclusion to make myself feel better. If it was that easy then I could have just faked speaking in tongues, and deceived myself into thinking what I was doing “was the real thing.”
When I first heard a former Pentecostal preacher/pastor state tongues wasn’t for salvation – I WAS SHOCKED! I thought, “How can he say that?! Could it be true? I need to look more into this.” So began my delving into debates on tongues, and getting my hands on every article I could read about the subject. I thought my head would explode with all of the information I was trying to take in. If tongues were indeed not necessary for salvation, than why had I been taught this? Forty years of anguish were about to be wiped away.

Please know I’m just touching on various scriptures, and not listing a full view of all verses. These are for reference to share an idea, and can be further studied out.

RECEIVING THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES
PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES – IT EQUALS MINDSET

* The Spirit came on/in people in the Old Testament, which enabled them to do a variety of things. When the Holy Spirit was present, his power was enough to accomplish tasks through willing men. The Spirit is literally all over the Old Testament, helping mankind do the will of God, and here are just a few examples…

Bezalel is “filled” with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).

Sampson performs feats of strength when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him (Judges 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29; Luke 2:25).

So here we come to the New Testament covenant…

Why would the Holy Spirit not be powerful enough to accomplish various tasks now unless a person is actually speaking in tongues? Has the Spirit somehow become weak or inhibited in the New Testament? Is the Holy Spirit now dependent on man to be speaking an unknown language to be powerful? I THINK NOT.

How do we know the Holy Spirit is present? Well, just like in the Old Testament – we accomplish whatever it is that God wants us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

*Notice what Paul does in his spirit (lower case ‘s’) is not being done with the Holy Spirit (capital ‘S’) in I Cor 14:13-15. Nowhere in the Bible is Deity referenced with a lower case ‘s’. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man (his spirit) – not God’s Spirit.

*We are told to pray ALWAYS with the Spirit. Eph 6:18 – shall we take this to mean we should only ever pray in tongues or it’s unacceptable? Of course not.

*When Jesus told his disciples how to pray, he did not say they would have an alternate prayer language one day that would make them more powerful prayer warriors. Luke 11:1-13.

*During Paul’s conversion the Bible never says he spoke in tongues. Some would like to ASSUME he did, but this is to promote a doctrinal belief rather than taking the Bible at its word.

*Paul did later say he spoke in tongues more than anybody else. OF COURSE HE DID – HE WAS AN EVANGELIST. He traveled to a variety of countries to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. How else was he supposed to accomplish this? Hire an interpreter? Oh wait…he had one! The Holy Spirit was with him helping with the Gift of Tongues to overcome the language barrier.

*Tongues given on the day of Pentecost were LANGUAGES that could be interpreted – not something you have to learn to do. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible you have “baby” tongues or “adult” tongues? No. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible that some people will not be able to be saved if they cannot speak in tongues? No. Does it ever say in the Bible that it will take some people longer to be saved than others because some have a hard time speaking in tongues? No. Does it ever say some will need to tarry at the altar time and again to be saved because they can’t speak in tongues for the first few hundred times they ask? No.

*Paul states he wishes everyone would speak in tongues, but not everyone did. I’m sure he also wished everyone were sinless, yet no one is. Just because he wished something to be so, doesn’t mean it is so. He rather states that tongues is not the greater gift, but prophecy is. I Cor 14:5.

*Nowhere does Paul ever state there are two types of tongues (first infilling of the Holy Ghost and a Gift of the Spirit). This in itself speaks volumes. Additionally, if we are to believe that there are two types of tongues, then are we supposed to believe there are also two types of all of the Gifts of the Spirit? If not, why not? Why just tongues?

*Paul states IF someone does speak in tongues they should also pray to interpret. I Cor 14:13. I have never heard a preacher get up and tell people prophecy is the greater gift, and if someone speaks in tongues then they should also pray to interpret. It seems to me that tongues is sought after more than any other gift in our day, just like it was in Paul’s day, and he was literally critiquing them for it. However, in our day not only is the Gift of Tongues more coveted, but a whole denomination has been made out of the practice. I think if the Apostle Paul walked into these churches today, he wouldn’t be giving a happy clap on the back and saying “well done.”

*Paul goes on to say if there’s no one to interpret tongues in the church then to keep quiet. He’s not forbidding tongues, but he’s telling them when and how it should be used. Does this sound like anything that happens in our churches? In my experience, no, it does not. It’s believed if you speak in tongues then you are more spiritual, powerful and more in touch with God than those who do not. Not only does the UPC teach you have to speak in tongues on the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, but you also have to do it repeatedly on cue when asked to “pray in the Spirit” during a church service. Also if you aren’t speaking in tongues pretty much on a daily basis, then you need to question your spirituality – therefore your salvation. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

*The Spirit issues the Gifts of the Spirit. I Cor 12:11. It is not a learned language.

*Do all speak in tongues? No. I Cor 12:30

*The Gifts of the Spirit were given to edify the body of Christ. Fruit of the Spirit is individual. The Gift of Tongues was not given so each believer could individually be speaking in tongues in a church service along with everybody else causing confusion.

*Acts 2:38 is misquoted by those raised in the UPC faith.

“Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” That’s it, that’s all. There is no “with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” in this verse.

Once again the United Pentecostal Church will try to say, “Well, what Paul meant was.” This is NOT what Paul meant. I think Paul could really say what he really meant to say, and he doesn’t need our help by putting words in his mouth. The UPC has added this in for the sake of trying to make an experience the basis for interpreting scripture. This again is ADDING to the word of God in no small manner, which is heretical.

The UPC has come up with its own doctrinal belief, and has to find ways to support it. If we took the Bible at its word and stopped mish-mashing and cherry-picking verses there would be a lot less hurtful confusion going around. This is no small matter. This is not a simple innocent error in interpretation. This literally changes the Gospel! I stand for the Word of God, and now boldly proclaim the UPC has it completely wrong on this teaching which robbed me of peace in Jesus for a majority of my life. To have a do-over, and be able to live my life resting in the beautiful salvation of Jesus would be a dream come true. However, if that had been my life then I wouldn’t be standing here now publicly shouting from the rooftops that the UPC has gotten it wrong since the late 1800’s – early 1900’s with the Azusa Street Revival.

Pointing out such errors in a belief system is not bitterness, nor is it anger. Do UPC preachers who stand behind their pulpits pointing out where they believe other denominations have gotten it wrong stem from a place of bitterness? I’ve never thought so.

I 100% believe in the Acts 2:38 message – just not the Acts 2:38 quoted by Pentecostals – know the difference! Pentecostals put the burden of obtaining salvation directly onto the individual. However, the Bible clearly states salvation is by BELIEF – not of works, lest any man would boast.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 5.