Category: Jesus name baptism | Spiritual Abuse Blogs

Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 6

The following is part six of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 & Part 5.

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Since we know belief alone saves us – what about baptism? Baptism is a declaration of spiritual warfare in the unseen realm. Believing in Jesus saves us – baptism is a loyalty oath! It declares whose side you are on in a spiritual war. Believe on Jesus – be baptized. It’s a wonderful first step of a heart changed by the Spirit – how beautiful! Michael Heiser covers this very well in a variety of his teachings from books, podcasts, and You Tube videos. Some would deny this, but let me ask this. If baptism is likened unto circumcision, how did circumcision save anybody? If you feel it did save, than it must have only saved men. Too bad so sad for women.

I’d always assumed my fear of God and hell came from the inability to speak in tongues. However, now I know so many who do speak in tongues are fear-filled too. This is because legalism and doctrinal error have stolen the peace of God. I fully believe had I been given the Gift of Tongues there would still have been fear and questions needing to be addressed as I tried to keep earning my salvation as taught by the church.

Another thing that really makes me doubt a variety of tongues spoken in our churches today is the story of a pastor’s wife I know who said speaking in tongues came so easily to her that she could be thinking about other things like her grocery list while babbling in tongues. What is the use? What mindless prayer…is this really praying in the Spirit? No.

A friend I went to Bible College with (who’s since walked away from God and the UPC church) told me he still speaks in tongues when he gets emotional. Once he was at a non-Christian concert and raised his hands at an emotional part in a song, and busted out in tongues! He said this can also happen at various parties thrown at home, and it amuses his guests. I’m not sharing this story to put him down in the least, but I’m sharing this because tongues is not all it’s cracked up to be, especially when they are used in a way that’s not scriptural. So the big question then becomes how much of the tongue talking going on in our services is really scriptural? I’ve come to think a majority of it is just an emotional response.

Another friend told me she knows a UPC pastor who has never spoken in tongues, and he doesn’t believe tongues are necessary to show the infilling of the Holy Ghost! I pray more UPC’ers come to this conclusion. [Note from Lois: Everyone who applies for license with the UPCI is asked if they believe that speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial
sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and if they have received this experience. The application asks where and when it happened and these questions are asked for each level of licensing.]

Someone recently told me they didn’t know anyone who hadn’t spoken in tongues (until my story came out). I just want to point out that unless someone trusts enough to share they haven’t spoken in tongues, then no one will know they haven’t spoken in tongues. The individual (me in this case) has to be able to trust in another not to shame them. And this person who said this to me has known me my whole life pretty much. Now many have come to me privately stating they feel like I’m telling their story as I’ve shared my own. We are not just one or two scattered here and there, but we could fill churches. We never know the pain someone is experiencing growing up sitting on the same pews right beside us.

My mother recently went to my previous pastor, and let him know I hadn’t really ever spoken in tongues. Do you want to know what he said? I will tell you… “Five minutes with me, and she’ll be speaking in other tongues.” What nonsense is this? Does he bring the Spirit? No. As if he hadn’t already prayed for me a gazillion times in my life! It didn’t work then, why would he think it’d work now? The Spirit determines the gifts each believer is to receive – not a pastor or anybody else.

Salvation has always been by belief in both the Old and New Testaments. Covenants change, but not the way of salvation. This is why the thief on the cross was able to be saved – because he believed in Jesus. There are so many denominational legalistic teachings that jump through hoops to try and justify situations like this, but it all comes down to belief. So simple. Such a blessing. So much peace in Jesus when we can rest in his assurance. And yes, people can be saved on their deathbeds by repenting and believing in Jesus (think thief on the cross).

As a result of where I am now, I feel such a kindred spirit with other believers. They are my brothers and sisters – not people I need to try to convert to a denomination. Understanding my place in Christ has made me want to share what I’ve learned. Everyone who loves Jesus and wants to live for him deserves to understand what God really wants for us and from us – belief and devotion to him only.

God is not a mean Father standing over us just waiting to string us up by our toes to drop us into hellfire for eternity if we mess up, don’t pray enough, wear pants, cut our hair, or something else a denomination has decided is a sin.

Here are some things I’ve relearned about our Heavenly Father…

1. He doesn’t require tongues as an admittance ticket into Heaven. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
2. The Bible doesn’t promote spanking of children as long as you pray before and after the act. “Sparing the rod” is not about spanking. When you learn the rod and staff are for the comforting and training of his sheep (not hitting his sheep) you realize HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
a. I get it…raising children is hard and frustrating sometimes, especially when we’re unsure on how to bring about the desired behavior. I recommend Positive Parenting Solutions to help with a variety of issues. Their tips are tremendous for both parent and child.
3. We are not in an abusive relationship with God. He does not require we serve him OR ELSE he will torture us for eternity in hell. God wants to live with those who love him for eternity in Heaven. Those who do not want him will die a second death in hell and be dead for eternity (not alive and being tortured for all the rest of time). HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.

4. Tithes are not a requirement for Christians. God doesn’t require people give give give monetarily until they’ve given to such an extent that they have had to neglect their very own real needs to support the church. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE. See this post.

Would we ever think it’s a beautiful and sweet behavior to see a child crying and begging for a gift? “I’ll try hard to be good, mom & dad, I promise. May I pleeeeeease have my gift?” Tears pouring down face… “Pleeeeeease. I love you so much. I will change, I will do what you asked me to do. PLEEEEEASE!” Hands in the air pleading for this gift, and sobs wracking body. “This time may I have it?” Now put this on repeat a hundred times over. Yet, here we are expecting not only ourselves, but also our children, to approach our loving God like this for salvation. God must be so heartbroken! I would feel ashamed of myself if this was how I required my child to act like towards me.

Matthew 18:1-8 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who BELIEVE in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”

<3 CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. <3

I fully recognize and understand how scary and unsettling it can be to realize something we have been taught as truth may not actually be truth. There are a lot of emotions that go along with this revelation. However, how often do we hear that when God is trying to do a work in us it can be painful at times like the pressure it takes to make diamonds? We are a work in progress. He is the potter, and we are the clay.

*Jesus is the narrow gate into Heaven – not a denomination and their rules.

*What does ‘backslidden’ really mean? Teaser alert – it is not leaving your denomination! See this article.

*I highly HIGHLY recommend listening to Deanna Jo’s YouTube channel Responsible Faith. She’s an ex UPC’er who reteaches a lot of scripture that was used to bind the saints into imaging a denomination, and shows what scripture is really trying to say. Image Jesus – not a denomination.

*I recommend the book Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices by Frank Viola and George Barna. This book delves into the history of our church practices, and what God really wants for his people. God wants a much more individualistic functioning of each of his children. Each and every member has an important role, and each one is just as important as the next. Our current church style makes the preacher have a really big mouth, and saints on the pews really big ears. This is not what God intended for the preacher or church body.

*This is a two-part teaching on the Grace of God. You’ll laugh, maybe cry, but in the end understand more about our wonderful Jesus.

*Mike Winger, The Beat by Allen Parr, Keeping it in Context by Aurelio Lessey have a lot of excellent teachings on a variety of topics on You Tube.

*A former Pentecostal pastor’s words on how the United Pentecostal Church misrepresents the Gospel may be found here.

If anyone would like to contact me with sincere questions, please feel free to email me at alicia.dwivedi@gmail.com. If anyone would like to contact me to berate or threaten me with hell – it won’t work. Fear and hell no longer have a hold on me.

I hope and pray my testimony of fear to faith will help people come to a better understanding of the Gospel and salvation. God Bless!

Alicia Sounier Dwivedi – April 27, 2023

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

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Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 3

Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith: Fundamental Doctrine. Comparing 1952 to 2022.

The United Pentecostal Church formed in 1945. Here we will briefly examine what the Articles of Faith have stated about their fundamental doctrine.

1952 Articles of Faith Fundamental Doctrine

What many current UPCI members do not realize, is that some of the people who came together to form the organization, believed that a person was saved upon repentance, but should go on to be water baptized in the name of Jesus and speak in tongues. Today you would likely not hear such a teaching in a UPCI church. David Bernard, the current General Superintendent, has downplayed the fact that the two groups had differences in beliefs.

This difference is why there is a mention in the fundamental doctrine concerning not contending for one’s individual beliefs. Due to the original wording, two groups were able to agree to come together and not cause division over when a person was considered saved.

Stanley Chambers (the first General Secretary of the United Pentecostal Church, who later became the General Superintendent in 1967), stated in an article published in the Pentecostal Herald (Official UPC Publication), that when the two groups merged to form the UPC, “one of the greatest problems for them to consider was the Fundamental Doctrine.” He shared there was “much discussion” about it.

In the October 1945 edition of the Pentecostal Outlook, the official publication of the P.A.J.C., W.T. Witherspoon wrote, “Prior to the coming together of all the delegates of both organizations, your Board of Presbyters had three or four sessions with the general board of the P.C.I. There were a number of major points which they wished to discuss. There were times when we diametrically disagreed as we presented our views based on what we thought you would want. A sweet spirit of unity and forbearance swept away each disagreement as we met each other half way.”

In the very first edition of The Pentecostal Herald after the merger, Oscar Vouga wrote, “The two former conferences agreed to make this paper open for articles pertaining to truths that may or may not be the opinion of all brethren, so long as these articles do not conflict with the Fundamentals of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church. …

“Articles on subjects such as ‘The New Birth,’ will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. This is indeed the most proper attitude toward the most vital subject, as we are all seeking after truth, and are confident that God will lead us into all truth, by His Spirit.”

How things have changed in the United Pentecostal Church since their inception!

In the original form of the fundamental doctrine, when it speaks of water baptism, the words “for the remission of sins” were not added until 1973, almost 30 years after the formation of the organization. Some claimed that the words were left out of the original 1945 statement as “an oversight.”

Others, like W.M. Greer and L.H. Hardwick, stated that those words had been deliberately left out and if they had been included in 1945, there would have been no merger.

When the resolution to add “for the remission of sins” was presented in 1973, Greer agreed to second the motion for acceptance as long as there was no official interpretation of the word ‘for’ in the phrase “for the remission of sins.” The word can be understood to mean “because of” or “in order to obtain.”

In Christianity Without the Cross, on page 338, Thomas Fudge shares that Greer failed to “stand up for the merger agreement” and in doing so, he and others “sacrificed, perhaps unwittingly, the binding principles of the merger itself for the sake of peace, political expediency and their own current welfare. … There can be no gainsaying that Greer acted honorably on behalf of unity, but he committed a serious tactical error which could neither be compensated nor reversed. On 23 October 1973 the PCI theological tradition crossed its Rubicon and W.M. Greer unwittingly led the last charge into doctrinal obscurity. That last flight had profound implications. That action had the resulting effect of eliminating whatever residual moorings the UPC might still have retained soteriologically in mainstream Christianity.”

2022 Articles of Faith Fundamental Doctrine

On page 154 of Thomas Fudge’s book, Christianity Without the Cross, he mentions that there was a resolution proposed at one time to remove the word “full” from the term “full salvation” in the fundamental doctrine statement. On page 186 he mentions how there was a submission to the resolution committee to add the words, “and a life of Holiness according to the pattern and example given in the Word of God and described in the Articles of Faith of the UPCI” to the fundamental doctrine as part of the plan of salvation. These resolutions never passed.

To read the entire 1952 UPCI Articles of Faith, go here.

Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 1: Public School Activities
Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 2: Holiness
Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 3: Fundamental Doctrine
Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 4: Atonement
Then & Now: Changes to the United Pentecostal Articles of Faith Part 5: Conscientious Scruples

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Logical Fallacies

I have difficulty attending many churches. I have trouble in some because of the songs, in many because of the exclusivity, but mainly because of the sermon style. If I go to a church and a leaflet is shoved into my hands, some fill in the blank, follow-along-with-the-pastor handout, I internally groan. Not only are the sermon outlines usually complete fluff:
(Fill in the blank)
Jesus loves ___.
Jesus ___ me.
Jesus wants what’s ___ for me.

Yeah, really. Wow, it’s mind numbing, what can be found on those handouts. I know they’re supposed to be helpful, but they irritate me. I only started realizing why today.

I’ve been confronted with too many logical fallacies in the form of study guides through the years. No room for questions. No room for alternative answers. No time to think. Just false statements and leading questions that make it appear that one of the answers to their multiple choice question must be right, or a fill in the blank that doesn’t feel quite right, but that they give you (force feed you) the answers to as you go through it with them. Not something you can study and fill in on your own, but that you go through, at their pace, together. During their monologue that reinforces how correct they are. They may pose a list of false answers. One of the answers is less false, and they demand that you respond affirmatively to one of them. This is psychological manipulation. It confuses the one who’s supposed to be answering the questions. None of the answers is true, but they say one is, and unless you’re good knowing your own mind and insisting none is correct, you end up confirming their lies… which, once you’ve answered them long enough, leads you to start to believe them. I was always a good student, one who always had the right answers. It’s hard for me to fight the force of their logical fallacies. Especially when they give me a quiz or a fill in the blank or a multiple choice that must be completed:
“Which of the above [our unbiblical assumptions, not facts] is most important? Which is next most important?”
“Which of these (all false statements) is true?”

From the very beginning of my time in the United Pentecostal Church, logical fallacies were used. The pastor gave me an Into His Marvelous Light Bible study, where a few verses were pulled out and used, fill in the blank style. Then he asked questions (directed by the study) which, if answered as people are pressured to answer and according to the 40 verses or so they pull out of context to prove their point. (Forty verses may sound like a lot, but there are over 23,000 verses in the Bible. Forty is less than 0.1%!!!)

Look at the teacher’s instructions:
“Each participating student should have a copy of the study along with a Bible (preferably the King James Version) and a pen or pencil. As each scripture is read, the student is asked to become involved, sometimes by completing a “fill-in-the-blank” or responding to a question. Additional comments and supplementary scripture references (designated throughout the text by small numerals in parenthesis) are provided on page 14 for further in-depth study at a later time. May we also suggest that all participants take a moment to ask the Lord’s help in understanding his Word, as King David once did when he prayed, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.” May God bless you as we travel together “into His marvelous light.”

So they have each person look at their own Bible, because they will later say, “But it’s right there in your own Bible!” if you disagree with something. And they use fill in the blanks for each of the verses so you have to fill in something that “proves” their point. And then they ask “logical fallacy” questions. All after having you pray that God will show you something new, reinforcing again that what they are about to share with you is special and is true.

In this particular Bible study, this becomes the logical fallacy:
We have found that the Apostles preached the following salvation message: … The life of Christ and His death, burial and resurrection … Repentance toward God and belief in Jesus Christ as Savior … Baptism in water by immersion in Jesus’ Name … Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (which was accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking with other tongues.)

For starters “we” haven’t “found” anything. Someone has just told the listener that this is what they believe. It’s not a “we” thing. And then:

DO YOU BELIEVE the Word of God is true and will judge us?
DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior?
DO YOU BELIEVE it is necessary to repent by determining to turn from sin and giving your life to God?
DO YOU BELIEVE water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the biblical way to be baptized?
DO YOU BELIEVE the baptism of the Holy Ghost is for you today, and when you receive it you will speak in other tongues, just as they did in the Bible?

Many Christians can easily answer yes to the first three. And if you answer yes to the first three, your brain wants to answer yes to the other two. The sequence makes sense, but the questions may not.
DO YOU BELIEVE water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the biblical way to be baptized? Well, maybe and maybe not. I told the pastor I’d have to think about this one. He looked surprised and sad. He moved on to the next.
DO YOU BELIEVE the baptism of the Holy Ghost is for you today, and when you receive it you will speak in other tongues, just as they did in the Bible? Now, the study revolves around this. And the Holy Spirit is for all believers, according to the Bible. So… yes? But there is more to the question, and not every believer is in agreement on the answer.

My answer to the last question ended up being “Not today!” I had been sucked far enough in to know they’d pray with me, that things would be expected of me that I wasn’t sure where I stood on. But the question is really another part of the psychological manipulation, of the logical fallacy. In order to answer affirmatively to the first part, you must answer yes to the second part as well. If you don’t, they’ll review with you. … at least unless your response is “Not today!” They might just have to leave you off the hook in that case, for a little while at least, until they regain their composure.

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Study and research, or proving you’re right?

When I first started attending a United Pentecostal Church, I “did my research” to find out if they were right. I looked up the verses they gave me to look up, and they’d accurately quoted them. I did NOT read the surrounding verses or consider the Bible as a whole, however, so I didn’t know they were sometimes taken out of context or twisted to fit their desires. I also searched Bible dictionaries and commentaries for the specific words the UPC used… and thought “Wow, even other churches’ commentaries say the UPC is right, even though they don’t follow it’s teaching!” BUT I never checked to see why those other churches did NOT teach like UPC or why they decided to teach what they did.

I run into the same issues today. I and others too often call something “research” when really what we’re doing is trying to find backing for the thing we WANT to believe, rather than looking for the truth in a matter. We want to be right. We want what we now believe to be right. And we’re willing to go to great lengths to silence opposing opinions, when really if we’re seeking truth, we should be doing the real research of studying out those opposing opinions and why people hold them, and comparing them to our own opinions and our reasons for them.

Cults love to “stack” false teachings by using our desire to justify our opinions and be right with a misconception of what study and research really mean. They’ll use obscure sources (or their own publications) to “prove” that what they’re saying is right, without giving consideration to any other perspective. Others “don’t have the truth” or are “lost”. They don’t have the great “revelations” that we’ve now been presented with [and had better accept or we’ll also be lost]. And so begins the stacking process. Then they do this, for example:

1) there is one God. (of course there is)
2) His name is Jesus. (wait, that’s not quite… but they have plenty of verses and we want to understand, and the verses are in the Bible, so…)
3) And every believer should be baptized in Jesus’ name (I was already baptized. Oh, but that’s not how you should REALLY be baptized. But maybe you don’t have this revelation. But if the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus, then I HAVE been baptized into Christ. No, not the same. The right words weren’t said. But don’t worry about that right now. Just keep coming and you’ll see…)

And after awhile, a person accepts the teaching as true. And because it’s preached often, even to a room full of people who already believe it, it’s reinforced and reemphasized until it becomes fact in their minds.

When I first started attending a UPC, on several occasions I was told not to ask certain questions or think about certain things yet, because they didn’t want to “confuse” me. The truth of the matter was that if I’d considered them at that point, before they’d finished stacking their false teachings in my mind, I WOULD have seen. I would have seen that what they wanted me to believe wasn’t all Truth at all. If I’d known how to research, how to really study rather than just trying to prove my own point or verify theirs, then I would have grown.

It’s easy to prove a point. There’s always someone, somewhere, who will agree that you can use to back your point. But it’s harder to take years of various opinions and consider and weigh all of them. It’s much harder to read about why people disagree with something you want to believe – to read respectfully, without constantly thinking what they’re saying is all wrong, but actually considering their words. It’s hard, but it’s healthy. And often it’s the only way to untangle unhealthy religious teachings at all.

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Shaky arguments

Someone asked something the other day, and since then I keep thinking about the incident that changed my view of the bible and of certain doctrines of my former church completely.

Before I left my former church, I had joined a discussion board that was supposed to be for people who believed like I did. Through the next months, I’d realized that the people who were kindest were NOT the ones I would ever fellowship in person because, though they exhibited the most fruit of the spirit (love joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self control) they didn’t dress the way I thought they should, went to places I didn’t think any Christian should, and even did things and said things I didn’t think any Christian would. It blew my mind that they were the ones, these that I would have judged in person as least Christian, could actually be the most Christ-like.

About nine months after I left my former church, a question was raised on that board about baptism. These questions were typical on the board, but this time one woman was very adamant about her position, and she put others down if she felt they disagreed with her on any point. I didn’t get involved at first, but after awhile she said something that made no sense at all, even from our shared viewpoint. I said something about that. She assumed I was disagreeing with her stance on baptism, and for the next several pages of discussion argued with me about something I already believed! She was so convinced in her mind, just as I’d once been, that if a person didn’t agree with me on everything, they must not be a “real” Christian.

And so we went on to have a several page ‘discussion’ that ended with me radically changing my beliefs and my understanding of several passages. So in short, a Oneness Pentecostal argued so ridiculously for what she believed (and was determined I didn’t) that she actually converted me FROM that doctrine, rather than to it. And she did a really good job of it!

I’ve experienced the same multiple times since. The harder someone argues for their views without listening to any others or even stopping to see what the other person DOES believe, the more likely they are to drive me away from their viewpoint, no matter how much I believed in it. It’s crazy now, looking back on that thread, because what she was saying doesn’t even make logical sense. I see where she inserted a bunch of emojis, particularly when she thought she’d made her point… and unfortunately most often where those points had actually fallen shortest. She really thought she was doing something, posting as she was. I notice the many times she would get upset by a question, restate her point, and then go off on an emotional tangent about how her view was directly connected to how great God was and how she had the truth. And I know there have been times in my life when I did, too. Now I realize that all of my arguments for what I believed must have sounded absolutely stupid to anyone who didn’t believe them. Worse, I was certainly proud of them… and I think that pride probably made them even more off-putting.

I want to post part of the conversation, but it is quite lengthy and dizzying in it’s ‘rabbit trails’. What’s incredible to me though is not how convoluted the whole thing got. It’s that she, in all her pride and zeal, actually preached me away from what she thought I had to believe to be saved, even after I told her I believed it. A United Pentecostal actually taught me why the UPC teaching of Jesus name baptism as the only right baptism was wrong.

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