Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Eleanor Skelton’s blog. It was originally published on November 30, 2014.
Like ships in the night You keep passing me by We’re just wasting time Trying to prove who’s right And if it all goes crashing into the sea If it’s just you and me Trying to find the light.
– Mat Kearney, Ships in the Night
So much religious noise, all around me…
“No, Eleanor, you have to receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues, and be baptized in my church, because it’s the only true Pentecostal church in Colorado Springs. I know you’re a Christian, but you aren’t Apostolic.”
“I’m a five point Calvinist. Human beings are utterly depraved and cannot be saved except by prompting of the Holy Spirit.”
“You don’t love Jesus, because you don’t obey his commandments.”
…I live in Colorado Springs, ok? Dubbed the Christian Mecca, due to Focus on the Family, Compassion International, the Navigators, and New Life Church.
And I have friends from nearly every denomination, and many friends of other beliefs.
Since I’m friendly and very extroverted, I often get well-meaning people trying to convince me of this or that doctrine. Or try to get me to go to their church when I’m not seeking another place to attend. My friend Cynthia B. calls this “church cannibalism.”
It all feels the same at the bottom – do you see me, do you value me as an individual? Do you care about me outside of earning brownie points for your church or god?
And if I don’t agree, then more convincing is in order.
It’s the principle, it’s the issue / that your principle would dismiss you. / Because you don’t fit into that All-American Box, / that coffin created for creative thought.
I’m not denying that objective truth exists. But as imperfect humans, how do we know that we are properly interpreting that truth?
Academic research in 2009 indicates that humans have a strong tendency to make God agree with us, to anthropomorphize our deities.
Shouldn’t Christians be different, if we believe the verse we quote so much:
“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
I think this is where fundamentalism for any belief becomes Pharisaical, looking for outward signs when no one knows anyone else’s heart.
One of Relevant magazine’s latest pieces, “Wrestling with Faith and Doubt,” addresses this:
“We never find Jesus calling someone a heretic because they interpreted an Old Testament story figuratively when it was supposed to be read literally or vice-versa.”
And the writer points out that in these details, we miss the endgame of Jesus’ message, loving God and our neighbor.
What if we were all just truth-seeking together, admitting sometimes we get it wrong? I admire people in the church who can say their well-meant methods didn’t work.
One of my pastor friends said at a conference last spring:
“I have a master’s in Christian education, and I thought discipleship was you get a bunch of people together and you do a Beth Moore Bible study, or a Henry Blackaby Bible study, and that’s what I did for years, but I was wrong.”
He discovered discipleship in community, bonding with others, not rote memorization.
Most of my spiritual journey has been finding where I got tangled, reaching for the light on the other side.
Rather than forcing change on everyone else, I’d rather seek out where I am wrong, to find spiritual healing for myself. The plank-in-the-eye metaphor is actually helpful here.
Because, like my pastor friend said about following Jesus:
“Some people make this complicated. It’s real simple. It’s so simple, it’s subversive.”
I appealed in a letter to the senior pastor because I doubted that my email would get to him. It didn’t do much good. He didn’t respond to me directly. Instead he told the other pastors and counselor (3 against one) to invite me to a brief meeting. It was only five minutes and they did most of the talking. Basically the assistant pastor apologized to me for any misunderstanding and all was forgiven. But I still came out of that meeting feeling humiliated and lied to. In fact I went into the sanctuary because the meeting had started and I couldn’t hold my tears back for about ten minutes.
On Mother’s Day the senior pastor didn’t pray for the mothers. He didn’t even ask them to stand to honor or bless them. He knew I am a mother of five. His own mother according to him was an alcoholic. That could be why he didn’t want to honor mothers. Well, they did show a short clip on the screen in honor of Mother’s Day but other than that he spent most of the service nagging or at least that’s what it felt like.
He was preparing for a three-day event of evangelism with his favorite pastors, so he asked people, “Who wanted to pray?” I think the congregation was a little surprised that he dismissed Mother’s Day in order to make it more important to pray for the three-day event. So people weren’t raising their hands at first. Then he started to really nag with his voice raised. Finally a few people started raising their hands. But as he was nagging he was saying, “If anybody doesn’t like my personality because I get angry sometimes there’s the door!” and he motioned to the exit door. I felt that God was prompting me to let that be my last day there. I felt the pastor said that and handled Mother’s Day that way to send a message to me that if I am to stay there that I shouldn’t question or check the character of the pastor against scripture.
I had enough. So I left and never came back. I did email one last time with a proposal that 1. They would put a footer in the bottom of their emails with a policy for emailing. 2. That they would have a sexual harassment seminar. 3. I would get a little bit of compensation money for having to go to therapy. I checked myself into a therapist and they confirmed it wasn’t a healthy church.
You could say I was a little ticked off. Ultimately I followed my convictions the best I knew how. But I did learn I need to use more discretion in the future with somebody of the opposite sex. I need to be more clear, concise and really limit any biblical advice to no more than twice if I don’t get a response. Then leave a church when there is a clear refusal from leadership to check their character or system against God’s standards.
He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Proverbs 9:7-8
Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Elizabeth Burger’s blog. It was originally published on October 20, 2016.
Note: this post contains some names that were changed to protect the people mentioned. Any name with an asterisk [*] next to it has been changed. This is part 2 in a series. You can find part 1 here.
Photo by Elizabeth Burger
I shared the gist of the letter with my family at a shared meal. They immediately defended the pastor and the church elders saying that perhaps it was simply how our denomination operated, and that I should check the book of church order to see what I could find there. So I went upstairs after lunch and did a google search and began skimming the book (which was online for easy access) to find anything relevant.
Unbeknownst to me, one of my sisters decided she would help me out by e-mailing the pastor my question. She carbon copied me in the e-mail. Below I have the entire e-mail history, only taking out things that would hurt the anonymity of my sister and family.
Hello Pastor John*, March 12, 2015 11:28 AM
I have a question for you.
When a member leaves the church (local church), is there a set protocol (from the Small Reformed Church* book of Church order) that the leadership takes in dealing with the member? Elizabeth has been looking for the answer in the book of Church order, but hasn’t found anything yet.
We are trying to understand why things happened the way they did with a lot of our friends who have left SRC, and wanted to see if we could find some answers.
Let me know your thoughts when you have a moment. 🙂
In Him,
Sister*
Meanwhile, I had found the answers I was searching for. Most of what was in the letter was called for as a part of our denominations rules. (if you want to read the specifics look here (sections 46.1-4 and 38.3b and 38.4).
March 12, 2015 12:48 PM
The quick answer (and I’d be happy to go through it more detailed in person if you like) is that the BCO (chap 37?) details how we should handle people leaving a local church.
If they a) go to another Bible believing, gospel preaching church we transfer them, if they b) go to an apostate or heretical church we call them back, or c) if they just stop coming to any church we call them back, and if they refuse, we warn them. In the last year (my tenure here), we’ve had people in all three categories.
Though we hate to see anyone leave, if people move to another church in situation A, we wish them well. If it is B or C, we have a duty to lovingly call them back, or urge them to A, because a person who moves to an apostate church, or breaks fellowship with the church permanently is a person who moves into a Matthew 18 category.
Again, I’m happy to talk to you, or your sister, about this in more detail in person, or Elizabeth can call me.
I may not be able to discuss every situation (as it wouldn’t be fair to the people involved) but I’m happy to speak as plainly and openly about any situation as I can.
See you soon.
John* Last Name
——-
March 12, 2015 2:00 PM
I erred a moment ago because I was not at the office. I just looked up the appropriate chapters. Look at chapter 46.1-4 and chapter 38.3b and 38.4 for more.
Also, and I may be jumping the gun or getting this totally turned around, but in certain cases where people leave or break with a church, they may claim to have been mistreated, or may tell tales of woe. This may be the case. But, it may not. Often only portions of the truth are told.
Feel free to talk to me or the other elders if you or Elizabeth feel we have mistreated anyone. Though we are not perfect, in my time here, I’m happy to answer to you and ultimately to God for any action we’ve taken.
John* Last Name
——-
March 12, 2015 3:49 PM
If you wanted to, another possible avenue would be for you to meet with the session if you have specific concerns. I would not want you or your sister or anyone at Small Reformed Church to feel we were hiding something from you.
Let me know if you or Elizabeth would be interested in that.
John* Last Name
During this time, I had spoken with two deacons’ wives and other families who had left. I was planning on speaking with the elders families when I came back home again for summer break (I was on my spring break at this point).
As part of one of my classes (Speech Communications), I was assigned to interview my home pastor over spring break on the topic of church communications (ironic, right??). My family was incredibly busy over my two-week spring break. I wrote the pastor this e-mail hoping to be able to ask him my interview questions via e-mail.
Dear Pastor John*, March 17, 2015 10:13 PM
I wanted to write you about two things. First, would you be willing to answer some questions for a school project I have? It’s for a group project in my speech class. My group choose to study and present on the topic of church communication. As a group we decided that we would all “interview” our home church pastor’s and ask them some specifics that they had seen in their experience to help us with the project. I would try to meet, but my break is almost over and it’s been crazy due to the play that Sister* and Sister* are in this weekend. Let me know! Thanks. 🙂
Also, would it be possible to get an electronic or paper copy of the letter sent out to the church at the end of last November regarding the Doe* family? I would really like to read it myself, and my parents no longer have their copy.
Thanks for your time,
Elizabeth Burger
He wrote me back within the hour, with this urgent response.
Elizabeth, March 17, 2015 11:02 PM
I’m happy to meet with you and, in fact, I ask you to please juggle things to meet with me while you’re still in town. I can make the time in the next 3 days to do that.
The reason I’d like so much to meet with you relates to what Sister* asked me last week on your behalf, and what I’ve learned about church communication. Things like this can go south quickly. I’m happy to meet and attempt to clear the air and hopefully avoid that outcome.
I respect you as an adult member of our church, I love you as a sister in Christ and I want to communicate with you as seamlessly, clearly, and honestly as possible.
As we don’t know each other that well, I would understand if you wanted another woman there. My wife, Elder 1’s Wife*, or Elder 2’s Wife* might be available to meet with us.
Let’s find a time to meet.
John* Last Name
During January, my counselor had recommended I read the book, Boundaries, by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. This letter was one of my first attempts to set my own boundaries with a person in authority.
March 18, 2015 1:17 PM
Thank you for your quick response. I am actually only interested in meeting to do the interview for my class at this time. For spring break I just need to talk about the class assignment and get your thoughts on specific questions that my group came up with.
I recognize the importance of talking about other things. My mom and I don’t have a lot of time, but if you wanted to share anything about the church I would be willing to listen. I do not have any specific questions for you at this time (regarding church things), but I would be happy to listen and not say or ask anything. So if you wanted to speak to anything you feel is an issue I would be okay listening, but I will not take questions or speak from my perspective right now. I am at an information gathering point right now. So, if you want to share your story of any of the church things I will gladly listen and take note. I would also like a copy of the letter that was sent to all of the church members. I was 19 at the time, and separate from my family (away at college). So I’d like a copy if you still have it anywhere on file, which should be easy enough. If you’ve changed anything in the letter you’re more than welcome to speak to me about that when we meet, but I still want to see it for myself.
That paragraph was way too long, haha. 😀 Basically, my mom can meet anytime tonight after 6:05pm. I realize this is not even in your regular office hours and it would take away time from your family. But that is the only time she is able to meet and I’d like to meet with you with her there (as you mentioned yourself, it would be good to have someone else around). We could meet for up to an hour of time if you’re available.
I’ll be checking my e-mail all throughout the day, so just let me know whenever you receive this and if you still want to meet and are available at the unusual time. Oh, mom said we can meet anywhere in Small Town* that you’d like to meet.
In summary (if the above is too long to read): I’d love to interview you tonight at 6:05 (or later) and after the interview if you want to talk about any Small Reformed Church* stuff that has happened since you’ve been here, you’re welcome to share your perspective and I will listen. I won’t talk about my perspective or answer questions, just listen. We could meet for up to an hour for the interview and anything else. I also want a copy of the letter sent to the church in November/December. If we don’t meet today (due to it being a crazy time or other circumstance) I would still appreciate a copy of the letter on Sunday, when I come to church. And thank you for answering Sister’s* e-mails.
Thank you for your time,
Elizabeth Burger
This was his response.
Elizabeth, March 18, 2015 2:43 PM
I will not be meeting with you tonight. I can’t agree to the terms you are setting out. Quite simply, it ignores our call to love one another and be in relationship.
I’m not sure where all of this is coming from, but your response seems to be extremely disrespectful and accusatory. I’m not sure what I’ve done to warrant that tone, and you say you are unwilling to speak to it. I’ve tried to invite you in to discuss whatever concerns you have adult to adult, but you are unwilling. If at a later point you would like to speak adult to adult, please let me know. Adults in loving Christian relationship have dialogue. They ask and answer questions. They disagree and discuss. When you’re ready for that, please let me know. I’d welcome it.
The best I can do at this point is get you a copy of the letter as you’ve requested that the session sent to the congregation. Send me your school address and I will be sure a copy is mailed to you. I’ll make sure your info is included in the next directory.
No matter what, I hope and pray that the Lord will bless you in every way.
John* Last Name
Wow.
Let’s just breathe for a second before we process this letter.
He told me that, “I respect you as an adult member of our church,” and then one e-mail letter, when I no longer met his requirements for how adults communicate, he was no longer willing to speak to me “adult to adult”. He also became hyper defensive and blamed me of being extremely disrespectful and accusatory. I’ll grant that my letter was poorly written, and quite wordy.
Sometimes adults also listen to other people (who says this is only for adults? Children are people too) and don’t give their opinions right then and there. Sometimes we give people space to share. Sometimes we dialogue. Sometimes we debate. Sometimes we sit silently together. There are many forms of “adult” (really, all people) communication. What do you think we did every Sunday at your church, pastor John??? You stand up front and talk to us, and we do not respond (verbally) at all. We sit quietly and usually listen and take notes.
I’m sorry that you did not think I was worth being in a loving relationship with (does that sound creepy to you at all?!) because I wasn’t ready to state my own thoughts on the church secrets. Well, now I am. More on this later, but I will now be seen as someone who is gossiping and destroying the “purity” of the church.
My question is this: If the church is actually pure, why do we hide in the shadows and the darkness? Why do we threaten people? Why do we force our own definitions of things onto them? Where is the love that is talked about so much?
This next part is pretty painful and I had trouble remembering the order of the next series of events which was mostly psychological warfare I felt from the pulpit.
When the senior pastor came back from his long recovery from surgeries, during the preaching, it seemed he started covertly addressing me. He said: “Sometimes issues in churches get swept under the rug and later the debris comes out.” Then he made eye contact with me. He went on and I don’t remember his words but he seemed to imply indirectly that it was getting taken care of now. Apparently, he saw something, questioned it, and something was acknowledged by the assistant pastor. Afterwards, I got a more overt message from behind the pulpit that I should say nothing. Now I got another long intense (almost threatening) stare and then he changed the subject. I believe that was the time he was most gentle from the pulpit. I felt somewhat blamed like it’s partly my fault.
It did seem like there was some form of mild discipline that happened to the assistant pastor. Because after that I didn’t see him preach or teach anymore. He also wasn’t making announcements or leading small groups that I know of.
Now, I don’t seem to be able to recollect what triggered the next time the senior pastor seemed to address me again from the pulpit, but my gut said it was a preemptive strike against me due to the pastor’s fear that I was going to spill it. I can only suspect after the discipline he read the email where I confronted his assistant pastor and he didn’t like feeling threatened that his long known right hand clergyman could be exposed in his own church, or he simply had an empathy imbalance for his assistant, or anger at the thought that I could divide the church or something. By the way, that senior pastor on different occasions has shown glimpses of his entitled and abusive nature. So let me backtrack a little bit and explain what was in that email in more detail.
As we know, Mathew 18:15 says:
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
I did that when I emailed him. It was my way of confronting him alone through the email.
You may also recall 1 Timothy 5:19 says:
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
I actually also told him in that email that if it didn’t stop I had 3 semi witnesses.
Two sisters knew I were going through something but they didn’t exactly know what. The third one was the church counselor, and I felt she knew because it looked like she was especially vigilant with him, and she offered me a ride home, I assumed to keep me safe.
So when I emailed him I mentioned her name as a potential witness but, lo and behold, they happened to be friends for 40+ years and working together since the church started. (Note: She later told me this.)
In the email I wrote the names of the two other sisters. So I guess he felt threatened and spun it, throwing me under the bus. Why else couldn’t he simply just reply to me personally and say, I’m sorry, I think you misread me? And why was it necessary for him to bring the counselor into it? I believe this was a manipulative tactic on his part so he could mentally abuse or gaslight me while dodging responsibility. Later, I told that to the counselor and her face contorted for a split second like she found it humorous but then quickly hid it from me. Then she lectured me about the seriousness of accusing a pastor without witnesses.
Going back to the second time the pastor covertly addressed me “allegedly.” And I do say allegedly because I think I had PTSD. This time I was sitting next to a sweet old sister I knew. In the middle of a preaching he mentioned 1 Timothy 5:20 which reads:
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (which applies to elders who are sinning.) Well, what he was saying about that verse was: “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander,” if I recall accurately I believe his eyes went looking for somebody. I wasn’t sitting in my usual place. I was in the back.
He continued: “When somebody in church is sleeping around they should be disciplined from the pulpit.” I had a gut feeling this was a preemptive strike and a threat to lie about me to my face before the congregation in order to make darn sure I wouldn’t say anything.
But again, it was only a gut feeling. I cannot make a strong case he was talking to me but when I wrote him later about it, I got no response from him. I do remember his wife telling me later that I was imagining things.
Also, later that evening was a prayer meeting at church. The pastor was there and I prayed that God would help maintain that all of us would “Study to shew {ourselves} approved unto God, workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). After the prayer meeting was over the assistant pastor had an impressed look on his face and tried to make eye contact with me but the senior pastor seemed like he was refusing to look at me at all. The next few scheduled prayer meetings didn’t take place, which was really not normal in the two years I had attended. I assume it’s because of me.
Those are all the reasons I believe that day from the pulpit he was trying to scare me. And how would I defend myself in light of that? It’s like getting hit in the stomach and taking awhile to catch your breath. Or it’s like getting hit in the head and then having to wait days to be able to think clearly again. And if I were able to regain my strength, how could I prove his lies wrong before the congregation?
Many of the sheep seem so emotionally and psychologically enmeshed to him and would blindly believe him without question. It reminds me of the phenomenon of Stockholm Syndrome. I also observed general complacent, blindfolded, mouths open waiting to be spoon-fed going on there. Unlike what I had observed in the congregation I was discipled in from a brand new baby Christian where I attended for about twelve years prior, where many seemed like Bereans. It was evident they study at home and where I was spurred on to do likewise.
Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Elizabeth Burger’s blog. It was originally published on August 24, 2016.
Note: this post contains some names that were changed to protect the people mentioned. Any name with an asterisk [*] next to it has been changed.
You can be amazing You can turn a phrase into a weapon or a drug You can be the outcast Or be the backlash of somebody’s lack of love Or you can start speaking up
Nothing’s gonna hurt you the way that words do And they settle ‘neath your skin Kept on the inside and no sunlight Sometimes a shadow wins But I wonder what would happen if you
Say what you wanna say And let the words fall out Honestly I wanna see you be brave
Innocence, your history of silence Won’t do you any good Did you think it would? Let your words be anything but empty Why don’t you tell them the truth?
– Brave, Sara Bareilles
“We don’t remember what they told us years ago. Stop asking people. You don’t want to start gossiping.” These are the messages I received from my parents and others when I started asking questions about a former church of mine, a small conservative reformed denomination (this clarification was always stressed, after all, we wouldn’t want people thinking we are part of our sister denomination, who were more liberal). Why all but one deacon and his family had left all those years ago. Why so many of my friends had switched churches. Why it still hurt and was unresolved. I needed to know. I could no longer let this unknown wound hurt me with no resolution or healing in sight.
So I started digging. This blog series (Church Secrets) will share some of the things I learned along the way. The reasons why I decided to leave my church. The reasons why I call it my ex-church instead of one of my former churches. The reasons why I currently do not attend church and struggle to trust any leaders in church.
It was November 2014. I went home early for Thanksgiving break so that I could see my counselor for a special 2 hour session to work through a large chunk of my major bad relationship (the one with the 40+ year old man online). I also got to visit some of my friends. Samantha*, one of my friends who had previously been a part of my church, started talking to me about what had happened. I thought she might know more because she and her family were close friends with some of the deacons and their families.
It had been over two years since Samantha and her family had left the church. A couple weeks before I visited them, they received a printed letter from the church. I’m going to quote the parts particularly relevant to this post below (click here to read the full letter). Pay close attention to the last paragraph in particular.
You may be worshipping with another Bible-believing church. If so, though we hate to lose you, please inform us so we can formally transfer your membership, or if you have already joined another body, please let us know so that we can remove you from the rolls. We wish you nothing but God’s greatest blessings on you and all you do.
The writer of Hebrews tells us “consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encourage one another…” We hope that we can be a church that does that for you. If you are not currently worshipping with another church, in love we urge you to either return to us (again, we’d love to have you back!) or find another part of Christ’s body to affiliate with where God’s Word is proclaimed, the Gospel is offered to sinners, the sacraments are given, and there is godly oversight by church leadership.
If you chose neither of these routes, the elders of our church will be forced to remove your name from our rolls, and we would consider you to have left the Church Universal and to not be covered by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.
I was shocked. I thought that excommunication ended hundreds of years ago. But no. It still goes on today. It went on at MY church. My own pastor and elders approved of this. And all you had to do was either not attend any church at all (because clearly all the sermons about not adding anything to the gospel were lies) or not attending a church that they approve of means you are not saved.
Yes. This actually happened. The leaders who I trusted and looked up to for over ten years were writing letters to former members informing them that they would treat them as unbelievers if they didn’t meet the right requirements.
Just thinking about this and re-reading everything over the last two days has kept me up until 6 am the other day. It’s been over a year now since I left my ex-church, and I’m finally able to start sharing some of the things that motivated me to leave. In future parts of this series I will be sharing: e-mails I received from the pastor when he learned that I was talking to former church members, a conversation I had regarding a former church ministry/outreach, a letter that was sent to all the members regarding a specific family who left, and more.
Like ships in the night
And the writer points out that in these details, we miss the endgame of Jesus’ message, loving God and our neighbor.
