Shaky arguments

Someone asked something the other day, and since then I keep thinking about the incident that changed my view of the bible and of certain doctrines of my former church completely.

Before I left my former church, I had joined a discussion board that was supposed to be for people who believed like I did. Through the next months, I’d realized that the people who were kindest were NOT the ones I would ever fellowship in person because, though they exhibited the most fruit of the spirit (love joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self control) they didn’t dress the way I thought they should, went to places I didn’t think any Christian should, and even did things and said things I didn’t think any Christian would. It blew my mind that they were the ones, these that I would have judged in person as least Christian, could actually be the most Christ-like.

About nine months after I left my former church, a question was raised on that board about baptism. These questions were typical on the board, but this time one woman was very adamant about her position, and she put others down if she felt they disagreed with her on any point. I didn’t get involved at first, but after awhile she said something that made no sense at all, even from our shared viewpoint. I said something about that. She assumed I was disagreeing with her stance on baptism, and for the next several pages of discussion argued with me about something I already believed! She was so convinced in her mind, just as I’d once been, that if a person didn’t agree with me on everything, they must not be a “real” Christian.

And so we went on to have a several page ‘discussion’ that ended with me radically changing my beliefs and my understanding of several passages. So in short, a Oneness Pentecostal argued so ridiculously for what she believed (and was determined I didn’t) that she actually converted me FROM that doctrine, rather than to it. And she did a really good job of it!

I’ve experienced the same multiple times since. The harder someone argues for their views without listening to any others or even stopping to see what the other person DOES believe, the more likely they are to drive me away from their viewpoint, no matter how much I believed in it. It’s crazy now, looking back on that thread, because what she was saying doesn’t even make logical sense. I see where she inserted a bunch of emojis, particularly when she thought she’d made her point… and unfortunately most often where those points had actually fallen shortest. She really thought she was doing something, posting as she was. I notice the many times she would get upset by a question, restate her point, and then go off on an emotional tangent about how her view was directly connected to how great God was and how she had the truth. And I know there have been times in my life when I did, too. Now I realize that all of my arguments for what I believed must have sounded absolutely stupid to anyone who didn’t believe them. Worse, I was certainly proud of them… and I think that pride probably made them even more off-putting.

I want to post part of the conversation, but it is quite lengthy and dizzying in it’s ‘rabbit trails’. What’s incredible to me though is not how convoluted the whole thing got. It’s that she, in all her pride and zeal, actually preached me away from what she thought I had to believe to be saved, even after I told her I believed it. A United Pentecostal actually taught me why the UPC teaching of Jesus name baptism as the only right baptism was wrong.

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Author: Through Grace

I was raised in a somewhat unhealthy church group within the Nondenominational Christian Church. After graduating high school, I began attending a United Pentecostal Church (UPC). I've been a member of four UPC churches and visited many others. Of the four of which I was a member, I was "encouraged" not to leave the first and then later sent to the second; attended the second where an usher repeatedly attempted to touch me and the pastor told me I should not care about the standards of the organization and was wrong to do so; ran to a third at that point, which threw me out after a couple years; and walked out of a fourth. For these transfers and because I refused to gossip about my former churches, some called me a "wandering star, a cloud without water" (Jude 1:12). I love the fact that when the blind man was healed, questioned by the Pharisees and temple rulers, and expelled from the temple, Jesus went and sought him out. He very rarely did this once someone was healed, but for this man, he did. I believe God has a special place in his heart for those who are abused, wrongfully accused, or condemned by religious leadership. I believe He loves those who are wronged by churchianity--yes, churchianity, not Christianity, because those who do these wrongs follow a church, not Christ. 1 John 4:7-8 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

One thought on “Shaky arguments”

  1. Thanks for sharing. I have had these arguments with my Oneness family members. They base this Jesus-only baptism on the idea of RE McAlister’s beliefs that the actual name of all three components of the God head is Jesus. However, the j wasnt invented until about 1600. His original Hebrew name was Yeshua. Don’t believe me? Research it. When we place wording and symbols above a concept, we have created an idol and our faith is in the symbols and not the ‘meaning’. By saying you must follow standards (dresses, don’t cut your hair, etc.) you are saying those things have the ability to save you, when in fact, Jesus is the only way. You are putting your faith in worldly traditions. Men and women but wore robes in the Old Testament. Men wore skirts until very recently. God does not see the outside. Why was the blind man blind that Jesus healed? So he could be made holy based on internal transformation. We cannot translate modesty into skirts below the knee. Modesty is not just visual appearances. It is your attitude as well. Also, in 2 Corinth when it is talking about a woman must cover her head, that was an actual covering like middle eastern women wear even today. In Corinth that was a symbol she was married. Just like a wedding ring. That is NOT a command from God but a suggestion from Paul to a church in the city of Corinth. I think a lot of legalism comes from a lack of knowledge and poor interpretation. Just as if I were to type in all caps it would appear as if I am yelling, when I really am not. Last point – fear in Hebrew DOES NOT translate to SCARED. It translates to awe. To have awe of God and child-like wonder and amazement.

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