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Just Couldn’t Stay Part 2

Continued from Part One.

It wasn’t just one thing that made me decide to leave as I mentioned yesterday, it was a compilation of many.

Alright back story time. I grew up in a ‘holiness’ church. Translation: any and everything will result in loss of salvation and send you to Hell. Things like fish net pantyhose, men with no ties on their shirts, crossing your legs in church for women, and popping your fingers because that is what the worldly people did to worldly music. Literally any and everything was a sin. Sin too many times and God would get tired of you and you would be “turned over to the devil.” All hope was lost at that point. You could have very well been bff’s with the Anti-Christ at that point. The list could go on and on.

Growing up my mother wouldn’t even participate in just everyday conversations at times because that would result in loss of salvation. I remember one time she yelled out in fear and anger “I’m not worried about those people I’m just trying to stay saved.” The reason for the outburst, my dad had just asked her if she remembered an old friend.

The deal is this ‘holiness’ group was not Apostolic Pentecostal aka Oneness Pentecostals. They were/are Trinitarians and believed in Matthew 28:19 literally. However, they were saved and we believed we were too at that time. They spoke in tongues, prophesied, danced in the Spirit, dressed and looked the part of UPC standards and obeyed the pastors every word.

We left that church for a time and started attending an United Pentecostal church across town, you know those Jesus only people. They did all the exact same things we did at our old church except for the “3 step salvation part.” I was only six at the time but I adored that little church. We didn’t stay there long though and I never knew why. So off we marched back to the Trinitarian holiness church.

For the most part that was my religious upbringing. The upbringing of fire and brimstone, blink twice and burn in hell, “God ain’t playing with y’all,” once saved barely saved, doubt your salvation every second of the day upbringing. How did I cope with it at the tender age of two till I could escape, suffer through a lot of psychology damage? It wasn’t until later in life I realized how catastrophic my view of God was.

When I was fifteen we decided to leave that church and organization for good. We visited another little UPC church in our town. They quickly let us know we had not been in the “truth.”

To be continued.

Book Giveaway #8

We have given away books for years as part of the spiritualabuse.org ministry and this will be our eighth one via this new blog area. This is your chance to receive one or more free books on various issues.

The first people with a USA mailing address who respond will receive their choice of books at no charge to them. (Unfortunately, it is cost prohibitive to mail these books outside of the USA. Canadians with a USA mailing address are welcome to request books.) To respond, just leave a comment for this post. If you are unsure what any book is about, the links will take you to Amazon where you may read their description and reviews.

Up for grabs are several used books and DVDs. Some of these were previously offered and will be available for the last time.

  1. One paperback copy of The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. TAKEN
  2. One paperback copy of Cruden’s Complete Concordance. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  3. Three paperback copies of Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. One copy has numerous pencil markings and another has some highlighting, but both are still very readable. TWO TAKEN
  4. One paperback copy of Love Is A Choice: Recovery for Codependent Relationships by Hemfelt, Minirth & Meier. Has some underlining.
  5. One hardback copy of How People Grow by Henry Cloud & John Townsend. It has a little highlighting.
  6. Two paperback copies of Safe People by Henry Cloud & John Townsend. ONE TAKEN
  7. Two hardback copies of Boundaries by Henry Cloud & John Townsend. One has a little highlighting. ONE TAKEN
  8. One hardback copy of Streams in the Desert  by L.B. Cowman. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  9. Two hardback copies of When God Doesn’t Make Sense by James Dobson. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  10. One paperback copy of Verbal Abuse Survivors Speak Out by Patricia Evans. TAKEN
  11. One paperback copy of Named By God by Kasey Van Norman. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  12. One hardback copy of Secrets of Your Family Tree/Forgiving Our Parents by multiple authors. TAKEN
  13. One hardback copy of We Are Driven (Compulsive Behaviors) by multiple authors. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  14. One hardback copy of Boundaries With Teens by John Townsend. TAKEN
  15. One hardback copy of Boundaries With Kids by Henry Cloud & John Townsend. TAKEN
  16. Three paperback copies of Mennonite in a Little Black Dress by Rhoda Janzen. TAKEN
  17. One hardback copy of An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W.E. Vine
  18. One hardback copy of The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (older and smaller). TAKEN
  19. One hardback copy of All The Women of the Bible by Herbert Lockyer. TAKEN
  20. One hardback copy of When God Becomes A Drug by Leo Booth.
  21. One paperback copy of Grace: An Invitation To A Way Of Life by multiple authors.
  22. One paperback copy of The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. TAKEN
  23. One paperback copy of Where Is God When It Hurts by Philip Yancey. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  24. One paperback copy of The Co-Dependent Parent by Barbara Becnel. TAKEN
  25. One hardback copy of Laugh Again by Charles Swindoll. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  26. One DVD of Holy Bible KJV Complete by Alexander Scourby.
  27. One CD MP3 NIV Audio New Testament Dramatized by Faith Comes By Hearing.
  28. One DVD The Story of Two Kings (plus two on the Bible) by Day of Discovery.
  29. One hardback copy of Churches That Abuse by Ron Enroth (signed). TAKEN
  30. One hardback copy of What’s So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey.
  31. One paperback copy of Who Stole My Church by Gordon MacDonald. TAKEN
  32. One paperback copy of The Feminine Soul: Surprising Ways the Bible Speaks to Women by Janet Davis. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  33. One paperback copy of Shell Song (mental illness) by Ellen Whitehead. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  34. One bonded leather copy of The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan. (The cover is in poor condition and there is some writing/underlining, but the inside is mostly good.)
  35. One paperback copy of False Holiness Standards by Linda Hopper. (UPC related) TAKEN
  36. One paperback copy of Pigs In The Pulpit by J. Michael Wittman. (UPC related) TAKEN
  37. One paperback copy of Under The Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. (Mormon related)
  38. One paperback copy of The Post-Church Christian by J. Paul and Carson Nyquist. TAKEN
  39. One paperback copy of Healing of Memories by David Seamands.
  40. One paperback copy of The Language of Letting Go (codependency) by Melody Beattie. NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  41. One hardback copy of Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake. (Mormon related) TAKEN
  42. One hardback copy of The Bible Jesus Read by Philip Yancey. TAKEN
  43. One hardback copy of The Year of Living Biblically by A.J. Jacobs. TAKEN
  44. Three hardback copies of Get Out of That Pit by Beth Moore. TAKEN
  45. One new DVD of Paradise Recovered. (spiritual abuse related)
  46. One set of 15 CDs (missing #2) of Financial Peace by Dave Ramsey. TAKEN

The first people with a USA mailing address who respond will receive their choice of book(s) at no charge to them. To respond, just leave a comment for this post. Please understand that comments require approval unless you have previously commented. So while it may look like you are first or second, etc. there may be someone ahead of you whose comment is pending. Be sure to use your actual email address when setting up to comment as I will be contacting you through it. Check your spam folder as email sometimes goes there. (For your privacy, do not put the email or address in your actual comment.)

Be sure to mention in your comment which book(s) you would like and you may refer to them by number. There is no limit on how many you may request, though you may only have one copy of any title.

I Just Couldn’t

I couldn’t stay once I read it in the bible for myself.
I couldn’t stay any longer when I found out that a lot of what I believed was added into scripture.
I couldn’t stay any longer once my eyes where open to the pride.
I couldn’t stay any longer when the inconsistencies in scripture were too big to ignore any longer.
I couldn’t stay any longer when after 13 years in, I still didn’t know if I was saved or not.
I couldn’t stay any longer when after 13 years I didn’t know who or what was going to save me in the end.
I couldn’t stay any longer when pastor after pastor, preacher after preacher constantly contradicted each other.
I couldn’t stay any longer when I found out other Christians loved Jesus and had a relationship with Him (I was lead to believe both of those where false) yet they didn’t hold to the same soteriology I did.
I couldn’t stay any longer when I found out about grace.
I couldn’t stay any longer and listen to the hatred, depression, fear induced, cliché, non-biblical preaching.

So, what did I do? I left Oneness Pentecostalism. It was by far the hardest thing I have ever had to do. It was the most traumatic experience in my life and it didn’t happen overnight. Did I ‘backslide?’  No, I did the exact opposite. I found Jesus.

To be continued.

God agrees with ME!

Editorial Note: The following is reprinted with permission from Eleanor Skelton’s blog. It was originally published on November 30, 2014.

newrope1028Like ships in the night
You keep passing me by
We’re just wasting time
Trying to prove who’s right
And if it all goes crashing into the sea
If it’s just you and me
Trying to find the light.
Mat Kearney, Ships in the Night

So much religious noise, all around me…

“No, Eleanor, you have to receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues, and be baptized in my church, because it’s the only true Pentecostal church in Colorado Springs. I know you’re a Christian, but you aren’t Apostolic.”

“I’m a five point Calvinist. Human beings are utterly depraved and cannot be saved except by prompting of the Holy Spirit.”

“You don’t love Jesus, because you don’t obey his commandments.”

…I live in Colorado Springs, ok? Dubbed the Christian Mecca, due to Focus on the Family, Compassion International, the Navigators, and New Life Church.

And I have friends from nearly every denomination, and many friends of other beliefs.

Since I’m friendly and very extroverted, I often get well-meaning people trying to convince me of this or that doctrine. Or try to get me to go to their church when I’m not seeking another place to attend. My friend Cynthia B. calls this “church cannibalism.”

It all feels the same at the bottom – do you see me, do you value me as an individual? Do you care about me outside of earning brownie points for your church or god?

And if I don’t agree, then more convincing is in order.

It’s like the opening lyrics to Relient K’s song “Failure to Excommunicate.”

It’s the principle, it’s the issue / that your principle would dismiss you. / Because you don’t fit into that All-American Box, / that coffin created for creative thought.

I’m not denying that objective truth exists. But as imperfect humans, how do we know that we are properly interpreting that truth?

Academic research in 2009 indicates that humans have a strong tendency to make God agree with us, to anthropomorphize our deities.

Shouldn’t Christians be different, if we believe the verse we quote so much:

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”

I think this is where fundamentalism for any belief becomes Pharisaical, looking for outward signs when no one knows anyone else’s heart.

One of Relevant magazine’s latest pieces, “Wrestling with Faith and Doubt,” addresses this:

“We never find Jesus calling someone a heretic because they interpreted an Old Testament story figuratively when it was supposed to be read literally or vice-versa.”

agape-loveAnd the writer points out that in these details, we miss the endgame of Jesus’ message, loving God and our neighbor.

What if we were all just truth-seeking together, admitting sometimes we get it wrong? I admire people in the church who can say their well-meant methods didn’t work.

One of my pastor friends said at a conference last spring:

“I have a master’s in Christian education, and I thought discipleship was you get a bunch of people together and you do a Beth Moore Bible study, or a Henry Blackaby Bible study, and that’s what I did for years, but I was wrong.”

He discovered discipleship in community, bonding with others, not rote memorization.

Most of my spiritual journey has been finding where I got tangled, reaching for the light on the other side.

Rather than forcing change on everyone else, I’d rather seek out where I am wrong, to find spiritual healing for myself. The plank-in-the-eye metaphor is actually helpful here.

Because, like my pastor friend said about following Jesus:

“Some people make this complicated. It’s real simple. It’s so simple, it’s subversive.”

I crave more of this subversive simplicity.

Why I Left: Final Part 5

Continued from Part Four.

I appealed in a letter to the senior pastor because I doubted that my email would get to him. It didn’t do much good. He didn’t respond to me directly. Instead he told the other pastors and counselor (3 against one) to invite me to a brief meeting. It was only five minutes and they did most of the talking. Basically the assistant pastor apologized to me for any misunderstanding and all was forgiven. But I still came out of that meeting feeling humiliated and lied to. In fact I went into the sanctuary because the meeting had started and I couldn’t hold my tears back for about ten minutes.

On Mother’s Day the senior pastor didn’t pray for the mothers. He didn’t even ask them to stand to honor or bless them. He knew I am a mother of five. His own mother according to him was an alcoholic. That could be why he didn’t want to honor mothers. Well, they did show a short clip on the screen in honor of Mother’s Day but other than that he spent most of the service nagging or at least that’s what it felt like.

He was preparing for a three-day event of evangelism with his favorite pastors, so he asked people, “Who wanted to pray?” I think the congregation was a little surprised that he dismissed Mother’s Day in order to make it more important to pray for the three-day event. So people weren’t raising their hands at first. Then he started to really nag with his voice raised. Finally a few people started raising their hands. But as he was nagging he was saying, “If anybody doesn’t like my personality because I get angry sometimes there’s the door!” and he motioned to the exit door. I felt that God was prompting me to let that be my last day there. I felt the pastor said that and handled Mother’s Day that way to send a message to me that if I am to stay there that I shouldn’t question or check the character of the pastor against scripture.

I had enough. So I left and never came back. I did email one last time with a proposal that 1. They would put a footer in the bottom of their emails with a policy for emailing. 2. That they would have a sexual harassment seminar. 3. I would get a little bit of compensation money for having to go to therapy. I checked myself into a therapist and they confirmed it wasn’t a healthy church.

You could say I was a little ticked off. Ultimately I followed my convictions the best I knew how. But I did learn I need to use more discretion in the future with somebody of the opposite sex. I need to be more clear, concise and really limit any biblical advice to no more than twice if I don’t get a response. Then leave a church when there is a clear refusal from leadership to check their character or system against God’s standards.

He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Proverbs 9:7‭-‬8

Parts One, Two and Three.

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