Category: United Pentecostal Church | Page 7

Jerry Moon’s Journey Out of the United Pentecostal Church Pt 2

The following is part two of a three part guest series from Jerry Moon, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1.

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Within weeks we started noticing a quite visible change in what we thought were our church friends. I had grown up in the United Pentecostal Church. Mother was raised UPC. My grandmother was UPC. All my friends were UPC. UPC was my life.

We began to notice when we went to the store, our friends would walk the other way to avoid us. Once I honked and waved at a older couple from our now former church and in unison they both turned their heads to look the other way.

I did have a couple of aunts that were UPC that were proud of me, but much of the family in the UPC treated me like my UPC friends did.

About three months after starting the church, my dad called me up. He wanted to know if we had room for another Moon in the church. He shared they were tired of hearing their boys being the sermon topic every service.

I now knew why everyone had been shunning us. Like the lies he had told when his son got a divorce, he was now telling them on us, to turn our friends against us. If possible he would have turned our own parents against us.

This is a tactic practiced by cults. The other members never want to leave because they don’t want to go through the same thing.

I’ve been told that the UPC would rather see people when they leave waste their life on a bar stool. They make good examples to the rest, of what happens to those that leave. It will happen to them if they leave. But what to do with those that don’t quit living for God?

I’ll remind you, at this point my life and preaching was still very much UPC. We just didn’t have UPC on our door. The only problem I had at that time was why the UPC was looking for the second coming of Christ when he was clearly living in us.

I had even subscribed to Irvin Baxter’s End Time Bible Studies so I could teach the book of Revelation correctly. But when I tried to teach his lessons, I always hoped no one would ask questions.

Dr. Marvin Arnold preached our first anniversary service. When I joined the Biblical Apostolic Organization (BAO), I explained my only problem with the doctrine. He had no problem with it. He has went on to be with the Lord since then, but his books are still on the internet.

When I shared this on my Facebook profile, there were comments that not all UPC churches are this way. They are right. There were two churches in the Texaco District that didn’t treat us this way.

One was a pastor that I later found out had big problems of his own. But despite it all, I’m grateful for the kindness he showed. And I’m grateful for the renewed friendship of late. Because of that, this is where I leave this.

The other was my wife’s pastor. He never turned his back on us to the day he went to be with Jesus. These two men were a encouragement to me.

I had various UPC ministries from around the States that preached for us and encouraged us. No, they are not all like this.

My wife’s pastor eventually left the UPC. He joined a little organization called the Apostolic Brotherhood International. He asked me to join as well and for a while I was a part of both the ABI and the BAO. These two groups then talked about merging, but never did.

Shortly after starting the church we were getting quite a group of young people. Growing up, church camp was a big part of my life. I wanted the best for our youth.

I went to Amarillo and met with a board member and talked to them about letting our youth come to the UPC Church Camp. I was saddened to hear that our youth were not welcome at their youth camp. It was quite shocking to me. I had always assumed everyone was welcome to go to heaven. But obviously this wasn’t the case. We later found a place for them to go to camp with another group.

When I went to the very first ABI camp meeting, I met an interesting preacher. He came up to me and introduced himself. After introducing himself and where he lived, he looked at me and said, “You may have known my dad. He used to pastor in Borger, Texas.”

My mind begin to whirl and I could tell by the way he was looking at me something was up. I finally told him I didn’t know a pastor in Borger by his last name, thinking that maybe his dad pastored a Baptist Church or some other denomination.

When he told me his dad’s name I was shocked. He at one time had been my pastor. One of those hard core, by the book kinda pastors. The kind you were scared to breath around types.

He begin to tell me a story. His mom had him out of wedlock. When his dad and her got married, his dad thought it best that her grandparents raise him and he carried his mothers maiden name. They then had nothing to do with him because his father was afraid that he would hurt his ministry.

I was floored. It was at this point that I begin to think, “Maybe I’m too good for that organization.” My journey began to get easier.

I’m not sure why, but it was just me and my dad who went to the local UPC church to a fellowship meeting. They had invited a preacher that had written a Bible Study and he was supposed to teach how to get and give these Bible studies.

Problem was he had just seen a great revelation. He kept getting off the subject and talking about red heifers and such. You could tell the ministry didn’t like it. They were squirming in their seats. He finally told them, “I know what I was called here to teach. But this is what God has given me. You don’t even have to pay me if you don’t want.” What a sermon.

A few months went by and I decided I needed to understand Revelation if I was going to continue pastoring. I had already tried pastor Baxter of Endtime. While I thought it was great stuff, it didn’t make any sense. I’ll try this new guy and if that don’t work, I’ll go back to Baxter.

I invited him back to Borger, promised him I would treat him better than his last experience and when he was through preaching the weekend, he hadn’t said a word about Revelation. I was upset.

Before I took him back to the airport I mentioned this to him. He said, “Brother Moon, get a book called Matthew 24 Fulfilled by John Bray.” The rest was history. I begin to climb out of a doctrine that I had believed was true all my life. My experience with God had just begun.

The next year after reading Matthew 24 Fulfilled was one of most amazing years of my life. I was blessed to have my dad share this experience with me. He had always been such a great teacher.

For the next year I felt like I was on a high. I couldn’t sleep at night. I’d wake up in the middle of the night with a scripture on my mind, thinking that’s what that scripture means.

I don’t know how many sermons I had to re-preach. After preaching something, I’d later realize that wasn’t what it meant at all. My new way of viewing Revelation was affecting my whole Bible.

Sometimes dad would push me along, other times I would push dad along. During the middle of a sermon I’ll never forget dad looking at me funny. I knew I missed the boat. I’d stop and reexamine the verse. Sure enough, I was off base.

After that first year I gave up my old UPC phrase I’d learned. I used to say while preaching, “We’ve got the truth.” My revelation had changed so much in the last year, I finally told our church that I can no longer preach we have the truth. I can only claim, we are trying to walk in the truth.

Not everyone shared my newfound joy for the word. Dr. Marvin Arnold was in bad health. He turned the reigns over to a newcomer into the BAO. He had been told of my new ideas.

I got a call one day and was told I was no longer in the BAO. I was also told to change the name of our church. I stopped sending my dues that day, but I wasn’t changing our name without a battle. I contacted a lawyer. We are still Biblical Apostolic Church.

The last I heard the BAO is no longer a organization. If you expect everyone to just believe like you, it will eventually just be you.

See Part 3.

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Jerry Moon’s Journey Out of the United Pentecostal Church Pt 1

The following is part one of a three part guest series from Jerry Moon, a former United Pentecostal Church member.

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While I was thirty two years old when I actually left the United Pentecostal Church, I would have left sooner had some other circumstances not come up. Looking back, maybe I should have taken advantage of the situation, but I was trying to do things right. I didn’t realize that any way I did it was going to be considered wrong. I didn’t even tell my wife or family what I was going to do.

A year or two before I left, the pastor’s son got a divorce. In a effort to make his son look good in his divorce, the pastor started preaching about it. How it wasn’t his son’s fault and how she was at fault. The problem was, that about thirty members of the church was kin to the little gal. They all packed up and left. I waited for things to settle down so I wouldn’t get the blame for a church split. But all is fair in love and war. I was blamed anyway for those leaving, even though I waited.

I had been praying hard about what I was going to do. I had put a list of what I thought was an impossible task before God. He not only fulfilled these tasks, but went above and beyond what I asked of him.

One of the items on my list was I felt I needed a license. I’ve since learned that in Texas one is not necessary. I had told God in my prayers that if I could get one with the UPC, I would throw it all out and just submit to what I was in. After all, at this point, despite what I had been through growing up, I still had a UPC mindset. I never got over the hurdles to ever even apply for a license with the UPC, but I did get hold of a small organization called the Biblical Apostolic Organization. Dr. Marvin Arnold was over it. A very kind ex-UPC minister that had been kicked out of the UPC for writing a book Pentecost Before Azusa. I thank him for the kindness he showed.

In the period between getting license with the Biblical Apostolic Organization and leaving the UPC, I got a phone call. A pastor in another town wanted to have lunch with me. I went, not knowing what he wanted.

He began to explain that he wanted me to come to his church and be the music minister. He explained that he couldn’t afford to pay me, but promised that any tithe that I paid in would be given back to me as salary. While it sounded tempting, I’ve been through and seen enough bad things in the ministry to realize this might not be a good thing. Besides all that, what this pastor was trying to do was highly unethical. I’ve seen so many bad things in the ministry that I’m now afraid to tell someone that I’m even a preacher. He knew it was unethical. He asked me not to tell anyone.

God sometimes goes above and beyond what we ask for. One night at McDonald’s after church, we were sitting at a table with a man and wife that was older than us. Let me remind you that no one knew what I was working on. I hadn’t even discussed this with my wife. I wasn’t too surprised when he looked at me and said, “What this town needs is another church.” I just nodded in agreement. Then he looked me in the eye and said, “God told me you’re the man.”

When I left McDonald’s that night I knew this wasn’t something that had leaked out. You had to to tell someone to have a leak and I hadn’t told anyone. I tried my best to act surprised, like this was news to me. But he added fuel to an already burning fire.

Another prayer I had been praying was to provide us a church. Ironic that I didn’t want to start in a storefront, but now we own a storefront. God provided. The Church of God of Prophecy put their building up for sale and they even financed it for us.

We later sold this little church and bought a storefront. The last UPC preacher that came by to explain how wrong we were was surprised to learn we owned free and clear our little storefront. God is a provider.

The last service I was in before I left the United Pentecostal Church couldn’t have been anymore God ordained. I was the youth minister of the church. Keep in mind that up to this night no one knew what I was fixing to do.

I’ll never forget what the pastor preached. The topic was what do you want to do for Christ. I couldn’t stand up and tell what God had laid on my heart like every one else was doing because that wasn’t the appropriate place to do it. But you can imagine my shock with me sitting there, when the former youth minister announced that he wanted to be the youth minister again.

After service I went in and told the pastor what I wanted to do. And that night the former youth pastor’s wish was met. He was the youth minister again.

When I left, I didn’t split the church. I took my brother and his wife, who would have left already had it not been for me asking them to wait because I was working on something. My brother had gone through a divorce and let me tell you, ex’s going to the same church doesn’t work very well.

That last night at my UPC church was the first time to reveal what I was doing to anyone. So far so good, or so I thought.

Next I told my wife, my brother and his wife. My wife was nervous. Then I told my parents. My dad assured me they were behind our new adventure, but that they were going to stay at the UPC church. His excuse was that he didn’t want people to see it as a family thing. I knew it was because they now had so much invested in the building. But I wasn’t telling them to try to get them to go with me. In fact, I was glad they were staying. I wanted a clean break.

I told the pastor of the Spanish UPC church. We had been friends for years and I wanted to keep their friendship. I told the oldest elder in the church. Years ago he had a dream that a young church rose up out of the older church. I felt his dream was coming to pass. He didn’t seem to share my excitement.

The adventure finally begins.

See Part 2.

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 6

The following is part six of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 & Part 5.

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Since we know belief alone saves us – what about baptism? Baptism is a declaration of spiritual warfare in the unseen realm. Believing in Jesus saves us – baptism is a loyalty oath! It declares whose side you are on in a spiritual war. Believe on Jesus – be baptized. It’s a wonderful first step of a heart changed by the Spirit – how beautiful! Michael Heiser covers this very well in a variety of his teachings from books, podcasts, and You Tube videos. Some would deny this, but let me ask this. If baptism is likened unto circumcision, how did circumcision save anybody? If you feel it did save, than it must have only saved men. Too bad so sad for women.

I’d always assumed my fear of God and hell came from the inability to speak in tongues. However, now I know so many who do speak in tongues are fear-filled too. This is because legalism and doctrinal error have stolen the peace of God. I fully believe had I been given the Gift of Tongues there would still have been fear and questions needing to be addressed as I tried to keep earning my salvation as taught by the church.

Another thing that really makes me doubt a variety of tongues spoken in our churches today is the story of a pastor’s wife I know who said speaking in tongues came so easily to her that she could be thinking about other things like her grocery list while babbling in tongues. What is the use? What mindless prayer…is this really praying in the Spirit? No.

A friend I went to Bible College with (who’s since walked away from God and the UPC church) told me he still speaks in tongues when he gets emotional. Once he was at a non-Christian concert and raised his hands at an emotional part in a song, and busted out in tongues! He said this can also happen at various parties thrown at home, and it amuses his guests. I’m not sharing this story to put him down in the least, but I’m sharing this because tongues is not all it’s cracked up to be, especially when they are used in a way that’s not scriptural. So the big question then becomes how much of the tongue talking going on in our services is really scriptural? I’ve come to think a majority of it is just an emotional response.

Another friend told me she knows a UPC pastor who has never spoken in tongues, and he doesn’t believe tongues are necessary to show the infilling of the Holy Ghost! I pray more UPC’ers come to this conclusion. [Note from Lois: Everyone who applies for license with the UPCI is asked if they believe that speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial
sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and if they have received this experience. The application asks where and when it happened and these questions are asked for each level of licensing.]

Someone recently told me they didn’t know anyone who hadn’t spoken in tongues (until my story came out). I just want to point out that unless someone trusts enough to share they haven’t spoken in tongues, then no one will know they haven’t spoken in tongues. The individual (me in this case) has to be able to trust in another not to shame them. And this person who said this to me has known me my whole life pretty much. Now many have come to me privately stating they feel like I’m telling their story as I’ve shared my own. We are not just one or two scattered here and there, but we could fill churches. We never know the pain someone is experiencing growing up sitting on the same pews right beside us.

My mother recently went to my previous pastor, and let him know I hadn’t really ever spoken in tongues. Do you want to know what he said? I will tell you… “Five minutes with me, and she’ll be speaking in other tongues.” What nonsense is this? Does he bring the Spirit? No. As if he hadn’t already prayed for me a gazillion times in my life! It didn’t work then, why would he think it’d work now? The Spirit determines the gifts each believer is to receive – not a pastor or anybody else.

Salvation has always been by belief in both the Old and New Testaments. Covenants change, but not the way of salvation. This is why the thief on the cross was able to be saved – because he believed in Jesus. There are so many denominational legalistic teachings that jump through hoops to try and justify situations like this, but it all comes down to belief. So simple. Such a blessing. So much peace in Jesus when we can rest in his assurance. And yes, people can be saved on their deathbeds by repenting and believing in Jesus (think thief on the cross).

As a result of where I am now, I feel such a kindred spirit with other believers. They are my brothers and sisters – not people I need to try to convert to a denomination. Understanding my place in Christ has made me want to share what I’ve learned. Everyone who loves Jesus and wants to live for him deserves to understand what God really wants for us and from us – belief and devotion to him only.

God is not a mean Father standing over us just waiting to string us up by our toes to drop us into hellfire for eternity if we mess up, don’t pray enough, wear pants, cut our hair, or something else a denomination has decided is a sin.

Here are some things I’ve relearned about our Heavenly Father…

1. He doesn’t require tongues as an admittance ticket into Heaven. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
2. The Bible doesn’t promote spanking of children as long as you pray before and after the act. “Sparing the rod” is not about spanking. When you learn the rod and staff are for the comforting and training of his sheep (not hitting his sheep) you realize HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.
a. I get it…raising children is hard and frustrating sometimes, especially when we’re unsure on how to bring about the desired behavior. I recommend Positive Parenting Solutions to help with a variety of issues. Their tips are tremendous for both parent and child.
3. We are not in an abusive relationship with God. He does not require we serve him OR ELSE he will torture us for eternity in hell. God wants to live with those who love him for eternity in Heaven. Those who do not want him will die a second death in hell and be dead for eternity (not alive and being tortured for all the rest of time). HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE.

4. Tithes are not a requirement for Christians. God doesn’t require people give give give monetarily until they’ve given to such an extent that they have had to neglect their very own real needs to support the church. HE ISN’T A BIG MEANIE. See this post.

Would we ever think it’s a beautiful and sweet behavior to see a child crying and begging for a gift? “I’ll try hard to be good, mom & dad, I promise. May I pleeeeeease have my gift?” Tears pouring down face… “Pleeeeeease. I love you so much. I will change, I will do what you asked me to do. PLEEEEEASE!” Hands in the air pleading for this gift, and sobs wracking body. “This time may I have it?” Now put this on repeat a hundred times over. Yet, here we are expecting not only ourselves, but also our children, to approach our loving God like this for salvation. God must be so heartbroken! I would feel ashamed of myself if this was how I required my child to act like towards me.

Matthew 18:1-8 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who BELIEVE in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”

<3 CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. CHILD-LIKE FAITH. <3

I fully recognize and understand how scary and unsettling it can be to realize something we have been taught as truth may not actually be truth. There are a lot of emotions that go along with this revelation. However, how often do we hear that when God is trying to do a work in us it can be painful at times like the pressure it takes to make diamonds? We are a work in progress. He is the potter, and we are the clay.

*Jesus is the narrow gate into Heaven – not a denomination and their rules.

*What does ‘backslidden’ really mean? Teaser alert – it is not leaving your denomination! See this article.

*I highly HIGHLY recommend listening to Deanna Jo’s YouTube channel Responsible Faith. She’s an ex UPC’er who reteaches a lot of scripture that was used to bind the saints into imaging a denomination, and shows what scripture is really trying to say. Image Jesus – not a denomination.

*I recommend the book Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices by Frank Viola and George Barna. This book delves into the history of our church practices, and what God really wants for his people. God wants a much more individualistic functioning of each of his children. Each and every member has an important role, and each one is just as important as the next. Our current church style makes the preacher have a really big mouth, and saints on the pews really big ears. This is not what God intended for the preacher or church body.

*This is a two-part teaching on the Grace of God. You’ll laugh, maybe cry, but in the end understand more about our wonderful Jesus.

*Mike Winger, The Beat by Allen Parr, Keeping it in Context by Aurelio Lessey have a lot of excellent teachings on a variety of topics on You Tube.

*A former Pentecostal pastor’s words on how the United Pentecostal Church misrepresents the Gospel may be found here.

If anyone would like to contact me with sincere questions, please feel free to email me at alicia.dwivedi@gmail.com. If anyone would like to contact me to berate or threaten me with hell – it won’t work. Fear and hell no longer have a hold on me.

I hope and pray my testimony of fear to faith will help people come to a better understanding of the Gospel and salvation. God Bless!

Alicia Sounier Dwivedi – April 27, 2023

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 5

The following is part five of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 & Part 4.

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I read through the whole book of Acts, and if I didn’t miss anything then there are only three cases where speaking in tongues (once again known languages) were present.

Acts is an amazing book which introduces us to the power of the Spirit of God. Jesus came into the world quietly, but the Spirit would come with an unimaginable entrance!

1. Acts 2 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Jews.
a. The disciples and some others were all in one place, and when the Spirit came, they spoke in other languages that were understood by those around them. What was being shared through tongues? “The wonders of God!” vs 11. Take notice that the Bible never says when the Spirit came that salvation came.
b. Vs 18 – God will pour out his Spirit, and people will prophecy. What? Wait a minute – when God pours out his Spirit aren’t people supposed to talk in tongues to show proof they’ve received it? Let’s continue…
c. Vs 21 – Everyone who CALLS on the name of the Lord will be saved. Hmm…doesn’t say everyone who speaks in tongues will be saved.
d. Vs 37 – The people who heard Paul’s message were cut to the heart, and asked what they should do.
e. Vs 38 – Repent & be baptized every one of you, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you, your children, and to all who are afar off.
f. Vs 41 – THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE VERSES! “Those who ACCEPTED his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day. The Bible NEVER says the 3,000 spoke in tongues. Those in the upper room spoke in tongues declaring the wonders of God. The 3,000 accepted the message they heard!!! AGH!!! How many times has it been preached the 3,000 spoke in tongues?! Praise God, I am so happy!

2. Acts 10 – this is the inauguration of the Spirit infilling the Gentiles. This is you and me, folks. YAY!
a. Vs 43 – All the prophets testify about him that everyone who BELIEVES in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
b. Vs 46 – The Spirit is poured out on Cornelius and his household. They heard them speaking in tongues (known languages – not babble), and they were praising God.
c. Vs 11:15 – Another interesting thing to note about this situation is Paul states the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles just as it had them at the “BEGINNING.” Beginning of what? Beginning of Acts 2. If the Holy Ghost fell on every first-time believer the same way, with evidence of speaking in tongues, then why did Peter reference the beginning? Why did he not reference tongues as it happened yesterday, the day before, last week, or to every believer every time? Because it didn’t happen this way every time…

3. Acts 19 Paul found disciples, prayed with them, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit with tongues and prophesied. The Gifts of the Spirit are clearly working here. Originally this group of disciples hadn’t even heard of any Spirit coming as they were still believing unto John’s teaching and baptism, which was to believe in the one coming after John, that is, in Jesus. This instance was more about proving the working of the Spirit, and not salvation.
a. “It was critical for Paul to understand these new disciples faith in Christ was genuine. Tongues here served as evidence of that. Had Paul not recognized that the Ephesian disciples were speaking in real, human languages unknown to them, there would be no way for Paul to know that their conversion was genuine. In other words, had they only been speaking unintelligibly, Paul would have been unable to confirm that their conversion was real. One must conclude that the Ephesian disciples also spoke in foreign, but intelligible human languages as well, in which case interpretation would also be unnecessary.” Quote from Jason Young.

Should it be said if one doesn’t experience the infilling of the Holy Ghost EXACTLY like they did in these three instances then we really haven’t been filled or filled ‘properly’? Because if this is the case then I think most of us haven’t experienced the infilling EXACTLY as described in these cases, and maybe each of us should start questioning our salvation UNTIL EACH OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN. Sounds pitiful and fruitless, doesn’t it? Here’s what we’d be missing – a sound as of a rushing mighty wind, cloven tongues like as of fire that sat on each of them, prophecy and a shaken place (Acts 4:31). How many have experienced all of these things exactly like this?

*Here are the rest of the locations in Acts where people were saved with no mention of tongues; Acts 4:4, 4:31, 5:14, 8:17, 8:39, 9:18, 11:15, 16:14, 16:25-34, 17:2-4, 17:33, 18:8.

*All BELIEVERS (not tongue-talkers) are baptized with one Spirit – I Cor 12:13, but not all speak in tongues – I Cor 12:30.

*What about Isaiah 28:11 – For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. It’s actually a judgement and not a good thing happening in this passage of scripture. The people were stubborn and wouldn’t listen to God. Learn more in this video.

SALVATION IS BELIEF IN THE GOSPEL – life, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

I have come to believe salvation is so profoundly simple, and it’s a relief to my soul that there is not one thing I can contribute or need to contribute to earn my salvation. Jesus did it all for me and for you!

Think about it…God has a free gift (salvation) for every person who asks for it. However, if you cannot speak in tongues as taught by the Pentecostal Church than you cannot receive salvation. If you are some of the ‘lucky’ ones who do speak in tongues, then you have to keep performing this act to retain your salvation. There are countless people who walk into Pentecostal church services that cannot speak in tongues, who are taught the problem lies with them, but I’ve come to say it’s not the people who are the problem – it’s the United Pentecostal Church’s teaching on what tongues is actually for that is the problem.

Once again these scriptures are not all encompassing, but I am pointing out just a few.

*John 1:12 Yet, to all who did received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God.

*John 3:15 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

*John 5:24 Whoever hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

*John 6:47 I tell you, the one who BELIEVES has eternal life.

*Romans 10:8-11 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,’ that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord,” and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you BELIEVE and are justified, and it with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who BELIEVES in him will never be put to shame.”

*Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of his glory.

*Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not of works, so that no one can boast.

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE – IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DO IN AND OF OURSELVES. We don’t have to perform for anybody.

So how do we know if someone has truly repented and believed unto salvation? Easy…Fruit of the Spirit begins to develop. It’s a heart change. Ez 36:26

“The apostle Paul used Abraham as an example of believing loyalty. Rom 4:1-12. Abraham BELIEVED and was accepted by God BEFORE he obeyed any rules. The rules were about showing he believed. They did not replace belief. Belief and loyalty are two distinct things. Related but not interchangeable. The same is true of salvation and discipleship.” (Michael Heiser’s book – What Does God Want?)

“David was a moral mess, but he never showed disloyalty or lack of love for God. He broke a number of God’s moral laws, but he repented and never worshiped another God.” (Michael Heiser’s book What Does God Want?) If we think that God doesn’t approve of someone because of a hemline, sleeve-length, men growing beards, or anything else along these lines, then there is a lot more Bible reading and soul-searching to be done. God forgive us for being so short-sighted. David was said to be a man after God’s own heart, but in our day and age I think very few of us would say this of a man who was a murderer, adulterer and liar.

There are three divine rebellions in the Bible (I know – we’re taught about only 1). Portions of Michael Heiser’s book, What Does God Want, is highly quoted with random thoughts of my own thrown in. I suggest watching his documentary listed below, and then read or listen to another of his books called The Unseen Realm.

“The 3rd rebellion begins at the Tower of Babel when God confuses the languages due to the people building a tower to their own glory. Gen 11:1-9. The Most High gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind…he fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the Sons of God (divine beings). But the Lord’s portion is his allotted heritage. Deut 32:8-9. Even worse God divorced himself from humanity. Up until this point God had been dealing with mankind as a collective whole, but this changed at Babel. Now human beings would be segregated by language and geography.”

“We aren’t told how long it took, but eventually the Sons of God (divine beings) assigned over humanity became so corrupt God had to judge them too. He will one day take away their immortality and take back the nations. Psa 82:6-8. God’s portion was Israel beginning with Abraham. God’s design has always been to preserve people unto himself, and he gave his people laws to show they wanted to be in his family – loyalty to him alone – not some other god. God wants a human family even when he’s unwanted. His love defies logic.”

“Jesus was the promised offspring who would eventually release people in the divorced nations from other gods so they could rejoin God’s family. Gal 3:16-18, 26-29. The Spirit’s arrival wasn’t just for us, but it launched an infiltration campaign against the sons of God to whom God assigned to the nations he divorced (Deut 32:8) – the supernatural beings who defected from serving God and became corrupt, abusing the people under their domination (Psa 82).”

“When the Holy Spirit came he enabled the followers of Jesus to speak in all sorts of languages, and they told his story (the Gospel) to Jews from all over the world. They were PREACHED TO IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. Three thousand people called upon the name of the Lord for forgiveness of sins and were saved. Then they went home to spread the Gospel.” (Not sit on pews for years of their lives unable to miss a church service for fear of being tempted by the Evil One. Alicia’s words – not Michael Heiser’s.) “These 3,000 became personal evangelists to their friends and family who lived in hostile territory held by other gods.”

Speaking in tongues bridged the gap between peoples. The languages were confused at Babel, and now the Spirit would bridge that gap to bring all the peoples of the nations back to God! Tongues isn’t for us to somehow be more powerful, but it’s given to spread the Gospel. If everyone in a service can all speak the same language than why would tongues be needed? If there’s no one to interpret – keep silent in the church. Very simple!

“Paul knew the forsaken nations would one day worship the true God (Psa 117:1). Spiritual warfare was launched when the Spirit came. Not a moment goes by that God stops pursuing the children he loves and wants. His unseen hand is everywhere, in every circumstance, influencing and empowering his children to grow his family. Likewise the powers of darkness have been dethroned, but they haven’t surrendered. They resist, fighting a losing battle. This our ultimate destiny – becoming a permanent, legitimate member of God’s family. It’s what God has wanted from the very beginning.”

“Those who overcome, enduring in their faith in Jesus, will received authority over the nations (Rev 2:26), and will one day judge angels (I Cor 6:3). Who rule the nations now? The fallen sons of God allotted to nations at the Tower of Babel.”

There’s so much more happening than we’ve been taught, and God is bigger than denominational disputes (which God never wanted his family to be split like this).

To me I now see denominations like this; imagine a huge cruise ship coasting along in the ocean with all of its little life-boats securely attached to the sides. In the lifeboats are the individual denominations yelling and waving their oars at each other saying they only have full truth and revelation. All the while God is carrying everybody who has obeyed the Gospel on his huge cruise ship including the individual lifeboats with the feuding denominations. Watching his children fight and get caught up in Pharisaical issues must grieve him terribly. Instead of being a whole body of Christ, there are divisions. Instead of encouraging each other, saints are trying to convert saints. Instead of making the way to Jesus plain, confusion is sewn instead, which causes many to fall by the wayside. I could have been one of these, but God…

I remember hearing a real story of my previous pastor’s mom speaking out in tongues one service. Unbeknownst to her there was a man of Palestinian descent sitting in the pew who understood every word she was saying IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. He confronted her and thought she knew his language and was trying to convict him personally. This amazes me! To my knowledge that man did not believe on Jesus that day, but the beautiful thing is a seed was planted. He could be walking around saved today, and spreading the Gospel because of the message he heard in his own language.

The church service I was in where God spoke to me personally about being with him for eternity was amazing! You know what would have made it not amazing? If there had been no one there to interpret the tongues spoken. The lady who had spoken in tongues would have been speaking mysteries because no one could understand her except God. It would have done no one in the church any good whatsoever – a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 6.

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Alicia’s Journey In & Out of the UPC: No Tongues – No Heavenly Admittance Allowed Pt 4

The following is part four of a six part guest series from Alicia Sounier Dwivedi, a former United Pentecostal Church member. See Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3.

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I will now begin the process of sharing to the best of my ability my journey to REALLY understanding my place in the kingdom of God. However, I don’t want anyone to take my word at face value – study it out. Listen to a variety of teachers on confusing subjects. Take your time, and know God will bless those who seek him. Please also understand, despite what you were taught about having to believe everything a denomination teaches you word for word without any variance or personal opinion, that this is not Biblical and NOT what God designed for his people, the church. I’m not suggesting people need to leave their denominations either. Just be aware when you align yourself with some denominations you oftentimes have to agree to their rules and regulations to be considered “right with God”.

One thing I’ve learned over time is instead of being imagers of Christ we have instead become imagers of denominations.
With some denominations your whole value as a Christian will be based on what you “look” like.
It doesn’t matter what gifts you’ve been given by the Holy Spirit, and it doesn’t matter what important role you have in the body of Christ. You will not be put into any position of ministry because you have not imaged the denomination properly. However, you best still sit in the pew and pay your tithes and give offerings – your money will gladly be used.
Once you have either been guilt-tripped into imaging the denomination again, you will then be considered “spiritual enough” to be in ministry, or you will walk away from the denomination knowing your place is no longer there.

Instead of being shaped into the image of Christ through the development of the Fruit of the Spirit, if we let ourselves we’ll be conformed to religions of this world.
Instead of teaching folks to listen to the voice of God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict where needed, the denomination has decided everything for its saints from the top down producing carbon copies of itself.
Seems a lot like idolatry to me…a denomination trying to mold people into its own image.

I was introduced to a Facebook page called SpiritualAbuse.Org when a certain man who’d been a part of my previous church had been charged with multiple cases of molestation was listed there. Originally I thought this page was primarily about molestation by spiritual leaders, but soon realized it was MUCH MORE THAN THIS. This page was FILLED with help for people who had been spiritually abused in any variety of manner. It also included a ton of information on every subject common to the UPC where pros and cons are clearly stated. You can read/listen to various subjects, and then make up your own mind on where you stand. You see, at this point I hadn’t realized spiritual abuse included me somehow.

Now I know the teaching about tongues being necessary for salvation is so hugely erroneous and is a heretical teaching. An alternate salvation was taught to me. Had this false teaching not been pushed on me from the time I was a little child, I don’t know where I would be in Christ right now. The thought of living for the Lord without all of the guilt and shame I carried for all of these years seems nothing short of idyllic. I can barely grasp the concept.

So why do I mention heresy? It’s so much more than just an error in interpretation or an alternate opinion over a trivial matter. “Heresy is sinful because the heretic commits idolatry by making his own beliefs the object of his desire instead of God who is the truth.” The UPC has made an experience determine how they interpret scripture instead of interpreting scripture correctly, and then defining their lives around that interpretation. Don’t believe me? Read I Corinthians 14, and see if church services function like the Bible says they should function. To be fair, I don’t think many churches do.

In no way am I stating in any way, shape or form those who teach tongues for salvation are malicious or somehow have ulterior motives. They’ve been taught this by their peers, and their peers by their peers. The cycle continues. I was once a part of this cycle for 25 years. I wasn’t mean, but I did think I was right. However, I’m thankful that understanding and peace have finally come to me after all of this time, and I pray my testimony reaches many others.

Another thing I’ve come to realize is so many feel like a denomination has saved them with the help of God, instead of recognizing God has saved them through people who have segregated themselves into a denomination. So they become afraid to leave that particular church or denomination. They can’t venture out anywhere else or their salvation will be in jeopardy.

So how did I come to this conclusion that receiving the Holy Spirit didn’t need to be accompanied with speaking in tongues? Well, I can tell you it wasn’t because I wanted to jump to a conclusion to make myself feel better. If it was that easy then I could have just faked speaking in tongues, and deceived myself into thinking what I was doing “was the real thing.”
When I first heard a former Pentecostal preacher/pastor state tongues wasn’t for salvation – I WAS SHOCKED! I thought, “How can he say that?! Could it be true? I need to look more into this.” So began my delving into debates on tongues, and getting my hands on every article I could read about the subject. I thought my head would explode with all of the information I was trying to take in. If tongues were indeed not necessary for salvation, than why had I been taught this? Forty years of anguish were about to be wiped away.

Please know I’m just touching on various scriptures, and not listing a full view of all verses. These are for reference to share an idea, and can be further studied out.

RECEIVING THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES
PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT DOES NOT EQUAL SPEAKING IN TONGUES – IT EQUALS MINDSET

* The Spirit came on/in people in the Old Testament, which enabled them to do a variety of things. When the Holy Spirit was present, his power was enough to accomplish tasks through willing men. The Spirit is literally all over the Old Testament, helping mankind do the will of God, and here are just a few examples…

Bezalel is “filled” with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).

Sampson performs feats of strength when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him (Judges 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29; Luke 2:25).

So here we come to the New Testament covenant…

Why would the Holy Spirit not be powerful enough to accomplish various tasks now unless a person is actually speaking in tongues? Has the Spirit somehow become weak or inhibited in the New Testament? Is the Holy Spirit now dependent on man to be speaking an unknown language to be powerful? I THINK NOT.

How do we know the Holy Spirit is present? Well, just like in the Old Testament – we accomplish whatever it is that God wants us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

*Notice what Paul does in his spirit (lower case ‘s’) is not being done with the Holy Spirit (capital ‘S’) in I Cor 14:13-15. Nowhere in the Bible is Deity referenced with a lower case ‘s’. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man (his spirit) – not God’s Spirit.

*We are told to pray ALWAYS with the Spirit. Eph 6:18 – shall we take this to mean we should only ever pray in tongues or it’s unacceptable? Of course not.

*When Jesus told his disciples how to pray, he did not say they would have an alternate prayer language one day that would make them more powerful prayer warriors. Luke 11:1-13.

*During Paul’s conversion the Bible never says he spoke in tongues. Some would like to ASSUME he did, but this is to promote a doctrinal belief rather than taking the Bible at its word.

*Paul did later say he spoke in tongues more than anybody else. OF COURSE HE DID – HE WAS AN EVANGELIST. He traveled to a variety of countries to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. How else was he supposed to accomplish this? Hire an interpreter? Oh wait…he had one! The Holy Spirit was with him helping with the Gift of Tongues to overcome the language barrier.

*Tongues given on the day of Pentecost were LANGUAGES that could be interpreted – not something you have to learn to do. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible you have “baby” tongues or “adult” tongues? No. Does it ever say anywhere in the Bible that some people will not be able to be saved if they cannot speak in tongues? No. Does it ever say in the Bible that it will take some people longer to be saved than others because some have a hard time speaking in tongues? No. Does it ever say some will need to tarry at the altar time and again to be saved because they can’t speak in tongues for the first few hundred times they ask? No.

*Paul states he wishes everyone would speak in tongues, but not everyone did. I’m sure he also wished everyone were sinless, yet no one is. Just because he wished something to be so, doesn’t mean it is so. He rather states that tongues is not the greater gift, but prophecy is. I Cor 14:5.

*Nowhere does Paul ever state there are two types of tongues (first infilling of the Holy Ghost and a Gift of the Spirit). This in itself speaks volumes. Additionally, if we are to believe that there are two types of tongues, then are we supposed to believe there are also two types of all of the Gifts of the Spirit? If not, why not? Why just tongues?

*Paul states IF someone does speak in tongues they should also pray to interpret. I Cor 14:13. I have never heard a preacher get up and tell people prophecy is the greater gift, and if someone speaks in tongues then they should also pray to interpret. It seems to me that tongues is sought after more than any other gift in our day, just like it was in Paul’s day, and he was literally critiquing them for it. However, in our day not only is the Gift of Tongues more coveted, but a whole denomination has been made out of the practice. I think if the Apostle Paul walked into these churches today, he wouldn’t be giving a happy clap on the back and saying “well done.”

*Paul goes on to say if there’s no one to interpret tongues in the church then to keep quiet. He’s not forbidding tongues, but he’s telling them when and how it should be used. Does this sound like anything that happens in our churches? In my experience, no, it does not. It’s believed if you speak in tongues then you are more spiritual, powerful and more in touch with God than those who do not. Not only does the UPC teach you have to speak in tongues on the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, but you also have to do it repeatedly on cue when asked to “pray in the Spirit” during a church service. Also if you aren’t speaking in tongues pretty much on a daily basis, then you need to question your spirituality – therefore your salvation. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

*The Spirit issues the Gifts of the Spirit. I Cor 12:11. It is not a learned language.

*Do all speak in tongues? No. I Cor 12:30

*The Gifts of the Spirit were given to edify the body of Christ. Fruit of the Spirit is individual. The Gift of Tongues was not given so each believer could individually be speaking in tongues in a church service along with everybody else causing confusion.

*Acts 2:38 is misquoted by those raised in the UPC faith.

“Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” That’s it, that’s all. There is no “with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” in this verse.

Once again the United Pentecostal Church will try to say, “Well, what Paul meant was.” This is NOT what Paul meant. I think Paul could really say what he really meant to say, and he doesn’t need our help by putting words in his mouth. The UPC has added this in for the sake of trying to make an experience the basis for interpreting scripture. This again is ADDING to the word of God in no small manner, which is heretical.

The UPC has come up with its own doctrinal belief, and has to find ways to support it. If we took the Bible at its word and stopped mish-mashing and cherry-picking verses there would be a lot less hurtful confusion going around. This is no small matter. This is not a simple innocent error in interpretation. This literally changes the Gospel! I stand for the Word of God, and now boldly proclaim the UPC has it completely wrong on this teaching which robbed me of peace in Jesus for a majority of my life. To have a do-over, and be able to live my life resting in the beautiful salvation of Jesus would be a dream come true. However, if that had been my life then I wouldn’t be standing here now publicly shouting from the rooftops that the UPC has gotten it wrong since the late 1800’s – early 1900’s with the Azusa Street Revival.

Pointing out such errors in a belief system is not bitterness, nor is it anger. Do UPC preachers who stand behind their pulpits pointing out where they believe other denominations have gotten it wrong stem from a place of bitterness? I’ve never thought so.

I 100% believe in the Acts 2:38 message – just not the Acts 2:38 quoted by Pentecostals – know the difference! Pentecostals put the burden of obtaining salvation directly onto the individual. However, the Bible clearly states salvation is by BELIEF – not of works, lest any man would boast.

Deanna Jo of Responsible Faith interviews Alicia:

See Part 5.