Author: Through Grace

I was raised in a somewhat unhealthy church group within the Nondenominational Christian Church. After graduating high school, I began attending a United Pentecostal Church (UPC). I've been a member of four UPC churches and visited many others. Of the four of which I was a member, I was "encouraged" not to leave the first and then later sent to the second; attended the second where an usher repeatedly attempted to touch me and the pastor told me I should not care about the standards of the organization and was wrong to do so; ran to a third at that point, which threw me out after a couple years; and walked out of a fourth. For these transfers and because I refused to gossip about my former churches, some called me a "wandering star, a cloud without water" (Jude 1:12). I love the fact that when the blind man was healed, questioned by the Pharisees and temple rulers, and expelled from the temple, Jesus went and sought him out. He very rarely did this once someone was healed, but for this man, he did. I believe God has a special place in his heart for those who are abused, wrongfully accused, or condemned by religious leadership. I believe He loves those who are wronged by churchianity--yes, churchianity, not Christianity, because those who do these wrongs follow a church, not Christ. 1 John 4:7-8 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

A conversation with a pastor

I emailed the pastor of the church I’ve been attending:

I know Refuge is complimentarian, but what to what degree? On a continuum, there might be “men and women are fairly equal, but women don’t preach” on one side, and on the other might be “women should remain silent, submissive, barefoot, and pregnant” on the other. That’s a very broad spectrum. I know you don’t fall on either side, but where in the middle of that does Refuge fall?

Regarding Ephesians 5, could you please define ‘submission’ as you understand it?

Yes, I’ve known they are complementarian, but the subject had never come up and women are very involved in the church, so it was easy to ignore. His response was interesting:

Mary, those are great questions!

For complementarian, we do believe that men and women are created equal (Gen 1:26-28) but they are created different (Gen 2). We were given different roles, but we are all gifted in different and unique ways. In Genesis 3 we see the abuse of those roles, especially in the curse – “Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.” Those are abuses of the way God designed us to be…working together and in harmony. So, how that all plays out in our world is tricky, but it is a posture of our hearts. So, we believe that the role of “elder” is reserved for men, not at the top of the food chain, but the bottom. To carry weight, to stand in the gates and protect the sheep from wolves. As elders, we believe that if we are doing our roles well, that every person in the church (male and female) ought to feel the freedom to serve in every other capacity. We don’t want to lord it over people, we want to serve and guide and protect.

As for “submission,” we are all called to submit, but it’s more invitational and not coercive. That means we see submission as a willful act, not a forced act…if that makes sense. In a marriage situation, that means that husband and wife work together, but the husband takes on the accountability to lead well and his wife helps him lead well – encouraging him when he leads well and opposing him (not in rebellion, but in encouragement) when he is doing things that are destructive to himself, to her or to their marriage. We see that playing out very similar in the role of elder.

Paul, in Ephesians 5 says that the church is to “submit” to one another. Wives are to submit – willfully trust and/or fight to trust her own husband (not all men), but also, that is balanced by the call to men to “give up their lives” for their wife. We do not believe that means women are to be silent, but are to be “helpers” as God called Eve in Genesis. I hope that makes sense. There are a lot of loaded words in there 🙂 so please ask for further clarity if needed.

The first sentence feels a bit condescending… and a lot fake. Women are “equal but different”… to a degree this might be OK. There are physical differences between men and women, and every person is different. I’d never realized that some translations say that the woman will desire to control her husband, and never thought of the verse as a warning before. It is these sorts of things that make me enjoy being there, even if I don’t agree with them on many things. That he adds that men are to be elders “to carry weight, to stand in the gates and protect the sheep from wolves…” is very triggering to me, since that was taught in the unhealthy group I came out of. Pastors in my experience are undershepherds who tend to run at the first sign of a wolf. And sometimes people need to be protected from them. And people aren’t sheep. The Lord is my shepherd….

Yes, there are a lot of loaded words there… and a number that are triggering to me. My background includes a LOT of misuse of the words and verses surrounding “submission”, “shepherd”, “accountability”, and even “protect”, to the hurt of those who had trusted the leaders using them.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by this statement: ‘In Genesis 3 we see the abuse of those roles, especially in the curse – “Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.”‘ I thought this was a statement of fact, a consequence of sin, rather than abuse of roles or part of the curse. (It’s my understanding that the ground was cursed and the serpent was cursed, but not Adam and Eve. Though sin did carry consequences, God didn’t curse them.) Or do you understand the passage more as the NLT puts it: “And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.” (I was a little surprised to find that as a translation, having understood it to mean her focus would be on her husband, on gaining his attention and affection, and that he would have the authority and sole decision making ability in the marriage. It wasn’t a verse I’d looked up or consider I might need to “untangle” from possibly poor teaching.) Could you explain?

Notice he doesn’t respond fully:

Yeah, I know those words are loaded and I would rather help redeem them than just dump them, but I am so very sorry that you’ve experienced the dark side of those words. That is, unfortunately, way too common.

The statement from Genesis 3, the relationship between Adam and Eve was also broken in the rebellion. In Genesis 2 we see them work together in harmony. Adam did not “rule over” her and Eve’s desire was not “for her husbands position.” They were secure, they worked together, they thrived in their relationship with God and with each other. I think we see the redemption of that in Ephesians 5. Part of that brokenness was each of them abusing or abandoning the way God designed them to work together. So, instead of working in harmony, their relationship became contentious. Adam (man) would be tempted to abuse his authority/headship, to use it for personal gain or self-protection. I think we have all (I hope) experienced some good practices of authority, but we usually don’t recognize it as authority. If you’ve ever had a good teacher or boss or someone who you knew would support you and you felt a sense of freedom with them. A good boss, for example, doesn’t threaten or govern with fear, but helps to push or encourage you to be your best. That’s good authority.

On the other side, Eve is tempted to “desire her husband’s position.” I think the temptation there kind of carries an “undermining” tone.

These discussions might be better over coffee or something so we can give a gentler tone to some of these words, because my fear is that you might hear these words wrong, and I really don’t want you to. I want you to feel confident and cared for and it sounds like you’ve experienced a lot of the opposite of that.

I am sorry for your past experiences. I really am. I appreciate you asking questions and I want you to feel a freedom to do that. We try as hard as we can to not have any “back rooms” or “hidden agendas” or anything that we hide up front. So consider that an invitation to keep asking and clarifying.

Hmmm… dump them? I’m not sure where he came up with that. The idea that Genesis was redeemed in Eph 5 is something I don’t understand. The sudden turn to “good” authority irritates me, too, mostly because I don’t see the point within the conversation unless it is to draw a parallel: there are good bosses and teachers so therefore there must be good authoritarian husbands. Hopefully I’m wrong, but to then move to Eve and parallel to a negative reinforces my distrust. Then comes the invitation to discuss in person… and again a condescending tone, followed by a statement out of the blue that they try not to have any hidden agendas. Once again, this raises red flags.

I responded, and have not received a response in nearly 24 hours:

Thanks for the responses. I don’t think most ‘authorities’ who support and encourage us to do our best see themselves as authorities. They lead, but they are just as apt to follow because they don’t see their leadership as a position and don’t view it with any permanence. Because of that, they are free from the fears and insecurities of authoritarians and freer still to do all things well, as are those around them. At least that’s been my observation.

I have learned good things [while at this church]… some things taught and some that drove me to study things out on my own or piqued my interest in a topic that I hadn’t already untangled. There is quite a bit that is believed that I don’t agree with, but I’m used to agreeing to disagree as long as I’m learning and don’t feel threatened or shunned for coming to different conclusions. My past experience is what it is. However, because of it, and because of what I learned from it, I am more cautious… and wiser, I hope.

I am available for coffee or whatever… But fair warning that any discussion of these things will not end or even slow my questions.

I may be too hard on him. He may have triggers from what I said as well. I’ve learned at this church, which is good. I’ve begun to want to study and pray. Those are good things. And there is no church in existence where I wouldn’t see red flags. What do you see? What do you think of my questions and his responses?

A Conversation With A Pastor, Part 2

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Why I still want to go to church

Yeah, church is a mess. There are things that I simply can’t deal with and things that turn my stomach about church. I don’t think American concepts of church are biblical, and I think in many cases they go against what was established in the New Testament. Church today is a lot more like synagogues in the Old Testament than anything–many tend to be Pharisaical, hypocritical, and full of useless traditions and rules that place burdens on those it is meant to serve. Church too often ignores the hurting and wounded, the poor, orphans and widows. They build doctrines that are inaccurate and unbiblical and ignore the beautiful simplicity that Jesus established. They argue, dividing over the smallest things.

Why would I want to be a part of that?

Participating in church is the easiest way to connect with other believers in a face to face setting.
It can be a good place to learn or discuss or at least consider other ways of viewing Bible passages.
It is part of my faith tradition–it is something that I’ve participated in for a very long time, and I sometimes find comfort in and sometimes simply long for some of the traditions there.

It’s not a very long list.

For months I visited churches. Finally I found a decent one where I could grow. There were good things to learn and I had begun to see the Bible as safe for the first time in a long time. I even began to pray. There was always a feeling that there was a glass between me and them, that I was fully visible and could fully see them but couldn’t touch them… like they held me at arm’s length, but the other was enough.

And then the safety was gone. The sermon was wrong, the scriptures were wrong, there was no safety and only the bad memories. Where they had always been so careful to tread lightly on scriptures that might be triggering, they suddenly were the opposite. I have no idea why, and I’m tired of asking. I want the feeling of safety back, but not if it’s just a facade–it must be a truly safe place, not just a place that feels safe for a bit until it’s true nature is revealed.

A response to a response on 55 Things Christian Women Hear

One pastor wrote in response to the Twitter feed #55thingsonlychristianwomenhear. He emphasized a handful of tweets that said women were valued, and then went into a complaint against tweets that Christian women had heard about being in leadership or wearing certain clothes. He apparently didn’t read the feed itself, which included things like:

“‘The ultimate healing would be if you two were married’– said by the mom of my rapist.”
*meeting my friend’s baby* “Don’t worry this will happen for you soon.”
“It’s not your job to read the bible to our children. Their spiritual education is my job said the man.”
“If you had to pick, you’d rather follow the call of God on your life than get MARRIED? I don’t understand!”
“I recently got my PhD, after congratulations everyone talks about me needing to get a husband.”
“The nerve of women to complain. And, PUBLICLY! A woman’s job is to keep the peace, at her own expense.”
“‘The definition of biblical womanhood is marriage & motherhood.’ So single/childless women are unbiblical?”
“When you heard many sermons on how women submit to husbands but 0 on how husbands lay down their life for wife.”
“I know we’ve been friends 20 yrs & the divorce wasn’t your fault but I can’t have a divorcee near my husband.”
“Ambition isn’t godly.”
“Did you come to seminary to find a husband?”
“You need to let a man provide for you.” Me: “I’m single, so if I did that I wouldn’t eat…”
“Said to male/female youth: ‘Every woman has an inherent desire for children. If she doesn’t, something’s wrong.'”
“The church: ‘The dental hygienist deserved to be fired” (boss lusted).’
“You must be mistaken! Your hubby is a GOOD Christian, You can’t be a battered wife!”
“Well, no, he shouldn’t have done that, but as his wife you have to submit.”

The above are just a sampling. They were not addressed in the response.

Now, as for what was, there was a lot on clothes and dressing modestly. It happens that I’ve known this man. It happens that he’s known me ever since I left an organization that taught women should only wear dresses or skirts that come at least 6″ below the knee, should always wear sleeves below the elbow, should not let their collarbones show. He is very familiar with this group… and disagrees with them. Yet what he says in this response about clothes sounds so like them. And then he says: “How a man views a woman who is dressed immodestly is different than the way a woman perceives it.”

Wait. Do all men view women who dress immodestly “differently?” What is immodest? Isn’t what is considered modest at least partly cultural? (Consider what some tribal people in Africa consider modest compared to what is modest in America, or what is considered modest on a beach compared to what is considered modest in an office.) And do men really think “differently” about women who breach whatever their definition of modesty is? In my experience, they do only or mainly if they are told they should or if it is often called to their attention.

He ends with this statement:
“Perhaps you need to learn to “count it all joy, my brothers [and sisters], when you meet trials of various kinds” (James 1:2). And you need to do that first before taking your grievances to Facebook or Twitter. Slandering the church is demonic. Watch out that you’re not like the wicked servant who beats his fellow servants in Matthew 24:45-51. God will cut you into pieces and throw you out with the hypocrites.”

Count it all joy. Unless he is saying that “trials” are dressing “modestly” and staying out of leadership in the church, he has read some of the other tweets. Count it all joy. When your parents tell you they wish you’d marry your rapist? When you are told that you should go to a Beth Moore study and do a craft while the men discuss theology? When you’re told a man’s just being a man when he stalks you at church, so deal with it? When you’re told that you should stop wanting to be married but should get married and, if you’re single, that your life is on hold because women’s highest calling is to marry and have kids? Hmm…

Our grievances have been taken to churches. For years. And they have been ignored, in large part, in too many churches. But now he warns us not to take these grievances to Facebook or Twitter. Don’t discuss them. Don’t bring them into the open. “Slandering the church is demonic.” Where is that in the Bible? Who is beating his fellow servants? There is NOTHING wrong with saying that something being ignored by the church shouldn’t be.

In that way, how is 55 Things so much different than Luther’s 95 Theses? Yes, he responded to different things. But he called out the church for teachings that were harmful to people and were unscriptural. Yes, the man who wrote the response would say that some of the responses were scriptural. But surely not all. Surely not the ones I listed. And as for “God [cutting] you into pieces”… that is not in Matthew 25. I have not seen that in the Bible at all, though I have heard similar fear tactics used to silence those who would stand for right. I’ll take my chances. I’ll stand.

As Kelly Ladd Bishop said in her blog post: “The hashtag took some criticism from Christians who claim that it reflects poorly on the church and will turn people away. But that’s no different than covering up abuse because it reflects poorly on the abuser. These quotes are the reality for so many women in the church. So if it is reflecting accurately and turning people away, then perhaps it’s time for the church to listen to what the women are saying and do better.”

God hates abuse

If you’re lucky enough to have been raised in a healthy church and by a healthy family, your first thought when reading the title of this post might be, “obviously.” And I’m surprised if you read past the title. For others of us, the title seems drastic. God hates other things, and maybe, just maybe, He doesn’t condone abuse… but…

but we deserved it.
but if we’d been better people it wouldn’t have happened.
but we have to stay in the marriage because God hates divorce.
but God says “honor your father and mother.”
but wives should submit.
but we have to stay in the church.
but we’re supposed to forgive and forget.
but if God really wanted it to stop, He’d stop it.
but the spouse/parent/leader didn’t really mean it…

Sound familiar? God hates abuse. Not just when it happens to other people, but when it happens to you. He hates what it does, how it makes you feel less than a person, less than others. He created you and he loves you, and that love isn’t conditional like people’s may be. And he doesn’t expect you to stay in a situation that is hurting you or your kids.

You don’t deserve to be hurt repeatedly.
You are not responsible for others’ bad behavior.
Abusers are abusive because they are bad, not because you are.
You deserve respect and love.
You are valued. You are loved.

If you’ve been abused, particularly if you’ve been abused or abuse was permitted by a church, you’ve heard passages about what you should do, how you should accept whatever happens, how you should forgive. We do not often hear verses against abuse… and if we do, the parts against abuse are quickly glossed over. Did you know (I didn’t):

I Tim 3: Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Malachi 2:16-17 “I hate […] a man’s covering his wife with violence, as well as with his garment.” says the Lord Almighty….

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

1 Cor 13: Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

James 1: 19-20 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

1 Tim 3: But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

1 Tim 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Ex 21:10-11 …he shall not diminish her [his first wife’s] food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

Titus 2:6-8 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

When I was a child, I knew an adult who my parents guessed was being abused by her husband. She often “fell.” Bruises on her face and arms were common. They talked about these and other signs in front of us kids, and encouraged us that if we were ever hit by a man who said he loved us, to leave him the first time he did it. That was instilled deeply within me, and though in time, in that particular situation, through a radical conversion experience of her husband, the woman suddenly stopped ‘falling,’ the affect the years of abuse had on her and her children were long lasting. One married a probable abuser (the signs, again, were there), another became abusive and has been through a number of relationships that ended badly.

However, I saw the verbal and spiritual abuse I dealt with very differently. I blamed myself for what happened. I needed to keep my head down, needed to be a better person, wouldn’t be abused if I were a good person. These were the lies I believed, and the ones I repeated to myself until the night when I remembered the battered woman from my childhood and the emphatic statements of my parents that if we were ever hit, to leave. No, I hadn’t been physically abused, but weren’t the harsh words, the angry responses of my pastor to the mildest requests just as harmful? I didn’t leave that night. It took another year, a year of taking OTC medications to get through services, of shaking so badly that I could barely stand if I so much as got a text from the pastor, to leave. It took being called out in a service for simply quoting a verse to someone next to me. And it took realizing that I would have to leave or lie to cover a situation that I was aware of but that the pastor would want kept a secret for me to finally leave.

Nine years later, I still struggle with the affects of that abuse. There are still verses that completely drain me, and it’s still difficult for me to believe that God is not OK with abuse, to the point that I’ve debated changing the title of this post several times because it’s difficult for me to say that God hates abuse. But he does. He hates abuse.

And he loves you. He loves me. And he wants much better things for us than what we have received at the hands of evil people who’ve abused us.

Jer 29:11 For I know what I have planned for you,’ says the LORD. ‘I have plans to prosper you, not to harm you. I have plans to give you a future filled with hope.

Abuse and submission

I’m doing some research on abuse and submission as a result of a recent incident (poorly framed sermon) at the church I was attending. Here are a few thoughts from articles that are jaw-dropping… unfortunately mainly because I’ve never, in 40+ years of church attendance, heard them.

Why women stay in abusive domestic situations:

One woman was Beverly Gooden who tweeted on September 8, “I stayed because my pastor told me God hates divorce. It didn’t cross my mind that God might hate abuse, too.” ~https://www.etbu.edu/php/theintersection/a-biblical-response-to-domestic-violence/

Toward the end of the above article there are verses that show the Bible to address domestic violence and abuse. I don’t recognize most… and never heard them in church. The church has generally taken the stance that divorce is wrong. Why have they not discussed the sin of abuse? The response of my former church would have been that the woman wasn’t sinning in accepting the abuse, but would have sinned by divorcing the abuser. Is this accurate? If she allows him to continue sinning by her silence, particularly if she has children who are also subjected to abuse or the affects of living in a home where abuse is accepted, is she sinning less by her silence than by leaving?

A lot of the messages around violence against women are aimed at women – like not taking illegal cabs for example. But we feel there also needs to be a campaign aimed at men saying ‘please stop’,” he says.~https://www.christiantoday.com/article/towards.an.effective.church.response.to.domestic.abuse/27307.htm

Wait. Please stop?!?! This was taken from Christianity Today, not some obscure website. Please?

From the same article:

In the Christian context, abusers may use Scripture or theological positions to justify their behaviour, while the women may believe that the permanence of marriage, the importance of forgiveness, and the headship of the man in the family means they must simply accept it.
“This needs to be talked about and what forgiveness means needs to be explained because people don’t realise that it is not being a doormat,” says Natalie, who is helping to draft Restored’s resources.

Notice that Natalie does not say that the permanence of marriage and the headship of man needs to be discussed. Just the issue of what forgiveness means. One of her last statements, though, stands out most:
“At the minute, the church isn’t the answer for people suffering abuse,” says Natalie.

Interesting to me was a Catholic article that stated, among other things:

Violence and abuse, not divorce, break up a marriage. ~https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/domestic-violence/when-i-call-for-help.cfm

This article also brings out scripture that shows abuse is wrong. I may post some of those in a separate article. They aren’t discussed or quoted nearly enough… and they need to be heard much more than “Wives submit…” and “women must remain silent” do. There are far more of them, but they are far less heard.

One last statement, because those reading it may well hear their own stories, no matter what sort of abuse they faced or from whom within the church:

He wanted submission from his wife and children. He wanted us to sit at his feet and learn from him. He wanted support and adoration from everyone. He wanted service and loyalty. Everything became HIS way. He knew BEST in EVERYTHING. … I didn’t seem like I adored him enough. I wasn’t loving him enough.

I sank into a deep depression. I began to see God differently than ever before. I felt like God was ONLY for my husband and not for me unless I was more obedient…more submissive…more adoring. I began to see myself as only a person in regards to my husband. Not an individual loved my Christ. I didn’t even feel like a human being anymore. Only a servant…and a terrible one at that. I don’t go to church anymore. I can’t pray. I don’t trust God. I struggle so hard to believe He loves me anymore.~https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2016/10/14/the-churchs-response-to-feminism-has-swung-the-pendulum-too-far-the-other-way-and-it-is-leading-to-abuse/

The quote above is very similar to things I’ve said due to church abuse. Only the man wanting submission and adoration was the pastor, not my husband. Abuse is wrong in any form.